Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

There there

A
There there

  • 3
  • 0
  • 30
Camel Rock

A
Camel Rock

  • 7
  • 0
  • 147
Wattle Creek Station

A
Wattle Creek Station

  • 9
  • 2
  • 138
Cole Run Falls

A
Cole Run Falls

  • 3
  • 2
  • 113

Forum statistics

Threads
198,958
Messages
2,783,780
Members
99,758
Latest member
Ryanearlek
Recent bookmarks
0
Status
Not open for further replies.

RattyMouse

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
6,045
Location
Ann Arbor, Mi
Format
Multi Format
Your logic is very convoluted. My wife's remark was an outsiders "general public".reaction to the long delays by Ferrania. Its the outsiders buying, or otherwise,of Ferrania products which will make or break the company, not the relatively few who spend their time making "proper assessments" of "the actual situation". The outsiders buying can only depend on their impressions of Ferrania's behaviour. Else, why not just buy Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Adox, etc., which they see as OK. Even buying Lomo, you know what you're getting, if that's what you want.

If I buy custard at the grocers, I don't spend time "making proper assessments of the actual situation" of the manufacturer. I buy on the known quality of the brand, whether it's readily available when I need it, and at a fair price....and, yes, rightly or wrongly, perhaps advertising and attractive packaging helps. And I want a reliable product, I don't want to pay to be the tester of something which may have faults.

Ferrania is a start up. A far different set of expectations should be used for a company that is building itself from one which is fully operating and has been for years. Ferrania's behavior has been exemplary. They have been more communicative to us than almost any other kickstarter I have followed. They have had to overcome numerous *unexpected* problems re-starting their factory than one could ever imagine. I am *amazed* at what they have accomplished.

Uninformed people are free to make their own opinions. They can do this without any facts or information. It happens all the time. The most recent election confirms this.
 

railwayman3

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
2,816
Format
35mm
Ferrania is a start up. A far different set of expectations should be used for a company that is building itself from one which is fully operating and has been for years. Ferrania's behavior has been exemplary. They have been more communicative to us than almost any other kickstarter I have followed. They have had to overcome numerous *unexpected* problems re-starting their factory than one could ever imagine. I am *amazed* at what they have accomplished.

Uninformed people are free to make their own opinions. They can do this without any facts or information. It happens all the time. The most recent election confirms this.

Start-up or not, any business needs sufficient ongoing customers....no customers, no business. And most customers do not buy a product just because they're "amazed" at the way the manufacturer has overcome "numerous unexpected problems", particularly if alternative, reliable, quality products from known established manufacturers are readily available at a fair price.

Whether you accept it or not, it's your "uninformed majority" who make or break something.....you prove the point by quoting the most recent election.

Any new business needs a USP for its products or services....something unique or novel, or different or better in some respect than its existing competitors, be it a better product, quality, reliability, price, advertising, or just a more attractive brand impression which appeals to your uninformed majority. Can Ferrania do this ?

Despite what you might think, I admire the technical side of Ferrania and their achievements. But in the end success will only come by selling sufficient film,(in an ongoing way, not the just the initial surge of enthusiasm by those of us who like to try anything new), and by building a reputation as a reliable brand. This won't happen the way they're going at the moment (IMHO, of course...but based on rather too many years (many successful, a few less so) in business and business advisory services.).
 
Last edited:

Truzi

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
2,651
Format
Multi Format
Not that it matters much to the discussion of time-lines, and perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic, but wasn't film production already committed to, and the Kickstarter was to support purchasing equipment that was earmarked for the scrap heap? Wasn't color slide film the reward, but not the direct purpose, of the Kickstarter?
 

1L6E6VHF

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
171
Location
Monroe, MI
Format
35mm
I think it's mostly about the way negatives worked with the analog print processors that were dominant up into the 90's. Once all the consumer labs went to digital, there was no practical disadvantage to using positive film for making prints. The workflow is identical. The colors are corrected the same way. I don't remember what film prices were like in the 90's so I might be off base here, but it was probably primarily the difference in price for E-6 film and processing that prevented it from becoming dominant once digital printing became the norm. By the time the analog minilabs were all phased out, digital photography was already starting to threaten the film market, and another revolution in the industry just wasn't in the cards. Had there been another generation of development at the industry's peak, I do think positive film would have become the dominant medium.

Prices for just about ALL photographic films (size, speed, type) were FAR less expensive in the nineties. Adjusted to inflation, the least expensive they would ever be, especially If you ordered it by mail. If you find a photography-themed magazine from the day, look at an ad for The Film Shop. If I remember correctly, I was paying about $2.50 for each roll of Sensia 100 24exp 135, and getting it processed and mounted for $2.29 at Drug Emporium.

From the introduction of 35mm Kodachrome in the late 1930s to about 1960, slides were considered to be the only practical and economic way for the average person to go color. Kodacolor film and prints had been around for some years, but the prints were expensive (since each print had been being made manually, IIRC), and the prints were hampered by poor dye image life.

EK would improve Kodacolor products in the later fifties, but still did not spool Kodacolor onto 135 until 1958.

Note that at this time, most family pictures were still black-and-white prints. Kodak started doing extensive promotional work on Kodacolor, seeing that mothers love handing out prints of their growing kids, and knowing that color negative technology did have practical advantages (exposure latitude, color balance correction in printing, enlargement to any reasonable chosen size, etc.)

1963 was the year that the lid was blown off the pot. Kodak introduced a faster Kodacolor (Kodacolor-X, ASA 64) and a new line of cameras and film cartridges (Instamatic/126) that together worked well with less light than older Kodacolor products. This came the same year that Polaroid introduced its first instant color print film. In very little time, color pictures were the norm and monochrome was seen as an "art".

(Oh, I forgot):
The dearth of one-hour-photo C-41 labs in discount and drug stores was most intense in the years either side of about 2010, as d****** cameras took hold and C-41 work load became too slow for a mini-lab to be profitable
 
Last edited:

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,570
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
Not that it matters much to the discussion of time-lines, and perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic, but wasn't film production already committed to, and the Kickstarter was to support purchasing equipment that was earmarked for the scrap heap? Wasn't color slide film the reward, but not the direct purpose, of the Kickstarter?

The reward batch, which was originally to be made using the last of the 3M-era chemicals, was not the direct purpose but a present for Kickstarter Backers. Had there been no delays, there would have been a window of opportunity to produce these films before the work began on formulating new emulsions. However that didn't bank on the Italian government building a new highway through the power and gas supply lines to the LRF or the asbestos in the building.

The main aim has always been, and as far as I can tell remains, to make a new line of E6 colour reversal films in 120, 135, super 8 and 16mm.

The kickstarter funds were to rescue the equipment, secure a lease on the LRF, get a small team of capable staff together, and prepare the LRF for production of new film.

As far as I know, they're on track to achieve all that.
 

Truzi

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
2,651
Format
Multi Format
The reward batch, which was originally to be made using the last of the 3M-era chemicals, was not the direct purpose but a present for Kickstarter Backers. Had there been no delays, there would have been a window of opportunity to produce these films before the work began on formulating new emulsions. However that didn't bank on the Italian government building a new highway through the power and gas supply lines to the LRF or the asbestos in the building.

The main aim has always been, and as far as I can tell remains, to make a new line of E6 colour reversal films in 120, 135, super 8 and 16mm.

The kickstarter funds were to rescue the equipment, secure a lease on the LRF, get a small team of capable staff together, and prepare the LRF for production of new film.

As far as I know, they're on track to achieve all that.
Thanx. I wanted to point-out/confirm that, as I think some of the comments have missed that point.
I'm not worried, as I am confident they will produce the film/rewards. I consider the P30 as a pleasant surprise, and I thought it would take longer to come up with something other than the chromes.

I should have guessed (but didn't think about it) that it is likely cheaper to test with B&W until everything is working. There still has to be testing of color coating, but a lot can be done, and money saved, by testing certain things first with B&W.
 

Diapositivo

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
3,257
Location
Rome, Italy
Format
35mm
Thanx. I wanted to point-out/confirm that, as I think some of the comments have missed that point.
I'm not worried, as I am confident they will produce the film/rewards. I consider the P30 as a pleasant surprise, and I thought it would take longer to come up with something other than the chromes.

I should have guessed (but didn't think about it) that it is likely cheaper to test with B&W until everything is working. There still has to be testing of color coating, but a lot can be done, and money saved, by testing certain things first with B&W.

I agree with this post and your previous one.
The "negativity/disappointment" about Ferrania performance stems from evaluating Ferrania's progress as it it were an establish business, IMHO. I see it not as a "mature business" but as a "daring endeavour", and therefore I can only see success so far.

There is no "delay" in the production of E-6 film because, as you point out, the kickstarter financing was about saving from destruction important pieces of equipment.
The rest of the enterprise is privately financed.
There was a bit of excessive "enthusiasm" in communicating the reaching of certain "milestones", but what is important to me is that the milestones are reached, not that the relative deadlines are met. I agree with the criticism about that, and I would agree in suggesting all future "deadlines" to be outlined with more caution, but the overall picture, to me, is extremely encouraging, and it deserves the loudest praises.

If Ferraniachrome alpha is not here by summer, that's not something that can disappoint me, provided I see the project is seriously going on, with the determination and intelligence that I have seen so far. If it is here by summer, I'll be enthusiast about that.

Every news that I read, that shows me "crunching" of unforeseen difficulties, determination in reaching the goal, serious industrial mentality, long-term focus and commitment is much more interesting, to me, that meeting a deadline.
 
Last edited:

RPC

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
1,630
Format
Multi Format
EK would improve Kodacolor products in the later fifties, but still did not spool Kodacolor onto 135 until 1958.

Note that at this time, most family pictures were still black-and-white prints. Kodak started doing extensive promotional work on Kodacolor, seeing that mothers love handing out prints of their growing kids, and knowing that color negative technology did have practical advantages (exposure latitude, color balance correction in printing, enlargement to any reasonable chosen size, etc.)

1963 was the year that the lid was blown off the pot. Kodak introduced a faster Kodacolor (Kodacolor-X, ASA 64) and a new line of cameras and film cartridges (Instamatic/126) that together worked well with less light than older Kodacolor products. This came the same year that Polaroid introduced its first instant color print film. In very little time, color pictures were the norm and monochrome was seen as an "art".

I grew up in the 50s and 60s and this is this is pretty much they way I remember it.

And when the availability of slide and CN film became on equal footing, projecting slides still had fair popularity but CN film and prints became dominant.
 

RattyMouse

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
6,045
Location
Ann Arbor, Mi
Format
Multi Format
I counter that it is not common sense to say "I know nothing about this but despite input from the people doing the work and from experts I am going to scream".

That's not common sense. Decency prevents me from saying what I think it is.

You are a better person than I am. Well said, and well not said.
 

fdonadio

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
2,116
Location
Berlin, DE
Format
Multi Format
In other news, I've just got an email from Ferrania explaining they charged me VAT in error and that the order has been corrected.

So, instead of paying €8.50 a roll, I paid "only" €7.00. Still a little higher than "competing" products, but that's a whole 'nother subject.

Grazzie mille, Ferrania!


Cheers,
Flavio

Edit: P.S.: they didn't actually charge yet, so nothing was lost. Card will be charged when the order ships.
 

afriman

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
283
Location
South Africa
Format
Multi Format
I just had an email from one of the few suppliers of film in South Africa. They've been Ferrania backers from the start. They've now become Kodak's official South African distributors.
 

Brady Eklund

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
55
Location
Eau Claire, WI
Format
Medium Format
I grew up in the 50s and 60s and this is this is pretty much they way I remember it.

And when the availability of slide and CN film became on equal footing, projecting slides still had fair popularity but CN film and prints became dominant.

Was widespread printing from slide film available at that time? Was it more expensive than printing from color negatives? I never worked myself on the analog color printers, so I don't remember what our process was or whether we even offered prints from slides before digital printers came on the scene. I do remember a stand for making negatives and positive duplicates from slides. Did labs have to copy the slides onto negative film to make color prints from them?
 

railwayman3

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
2,816
Format
35mm
Was widespread printing from slide film available at that time? Was it more expensive than printing from color negatives? I never worked myself on the analog color printers, so I don't remember what our process was or whether we even offered prints from slides before digital printers came on the scene. I do remember a stand for making negatives and positive duplicates from slides. Did labs have to copy the slides onto negative film to make color prints from them?

I have some prints-from-slides from the 1960's belonging to my late Father. They were from one of the regular mail order labs (fairly sure it was Gratispool, can't get to them to check right now), but there is definitely a set of 35mm inter-negs with them. I assume it was their normal service.

Edit - an afterthought. Presumably using internegs avoided the need to set up separate printers to work from slides, and a separate processing line for reversal paper?
 
Last edited:

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Kodak offered P122 for prints from negatives onto type C paper and P111 for prints from slides onto type R paper. They also offered an internegative print service with either keep internegatives or disposable internegatives. The processes were proprietary until the consent decree at which time the printers, processors and materials became available to anyone. Type R prints were slightly more expensive than type C prints.

The price was about $0.90 for developing the film and about $0.32 for each print. Both prices dropped rapidly and by about 1960 it was $0.28 for each print. It kept dropping for quite a while and sometimes film processing was included in the price if you got prints.

PE
 

FILM Ferrania

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
592
Location
New York, NY
Format
Multi Format
So when will P30 start shipping?

We expect to begin shipping the first customers next week and continue moving down the queue as the film is finished and in warehouses. It will likely take 2-3 weeks to ship all pre-orders.

The factory team asked me to close the shop to give them an opportunity to build up stock so we didn't remain in a perpetual "pre-order loop"...
 

pbromaghin

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
3,809
Location
Castle Rock, CO
Format
Multi Format
Dave, are you at liberty to tell us how much has been ordered?
 

Diapositivo

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
3,257
Location
Rome, Italy
Format
35mm
I disagree. History is the proof. Negatives have always been the medium of choice for the consumer over slides. Few project today, so negatives are even more favorable. The consumer has no other real use for slides, since both can be scanned with good quality. The better quality of prints from negatives, lower cost, and ease of processing and printing is the icing on the cake.

I see your point and I think the discriminating factor is home developing or laboratory developing.
For a lab work, an added CD with scans can be had with little hassle and presumably good quality. That would be good for Facebook and the like, while having the paper pictures to give around at the party.
For a home developing work, negatives would be more complicated to scan satisfactorily, while a scan at home might give good possibility of printing with on-line services.
It's horses for courses.
Negatives have their place, and I think slide film can live a new youth especially in the home-developing, home-scanning community, basically people like myself.
 

flavio81

Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
5,069
Location
Lima, Peru
Format
Medium Format
Negatives have their place, and I think slide film can live a new youth especially in the home-developing, home-scanning community, basically people like myself.

Yes, i think both have its place.

I choose slides for the extra (300% more) fun factor and the bold colors. I chose negatives whenever i want wedding-picture-looking skin tones.

We need both!
 

FILM Ferrania

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
592
Location
New York, NY
Format
Multi Format
There was a bit of excessive "enthusiasm" in communicating the reaching of certain "milestones", but what is important to me is that the milestones are reached, not that the relative deadlines are met. I agree with the criticism about that, and I would agree in suggesting all future "deadlines" to be outlined with more caution, but the overall picture, to me, is extremely encouraging, and it deserves the loudest praises.

Thank you, Diapositivo, for this great assessment, which very "nicely" puts the most salient complaints into the perspective of our long term goals.

Since early 2013 until today, we have only done exactly what we think we must do - based on the information available to us at that precise moment in time - to ensure our existence in a year's time.

In terms of our communications, this approach obviously doesn't work for everyone - although, taken as a whole, our community has been overwhelmingly positive and encouraging (even during the terrible shop launch).

We certainly read and absorb and discuss all complaints. Complaints are an inescapable and inherent part of any business and to ignore them is beyond foolish - it is negligent.

And so, we must continue to do what we think we must do - based on the information available to us at any given moment in time - to ensure people are able complain about us in a year's time.
 

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,685
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
I remember suffering through family slide shows as a kid. I think I'm still scarred by the experience!

:D
It was my favorite thing. I can still remember the smell of the screen and the Argus/Airequipt ?? projector that would jam. I transferred all my Dad's slides into Carousels when the slide tray purge hit about 10 years ago. My Dad didn't waste a shot not when he was paying a silver dime a piece for a 25B press bulb (remember the crackle of the blue plastic film as it melted onto the bulb?) By the late 70's he had a Beseler Topcon Auto 100, My sister and I were grown up and he just banged away like everybody did.
He took some fabulous shots, I would bet that there are at least 10 or 12 slides that are worthy of national Geographic, Life etc.
Ida Kingscott & GDaughter Andrea B Hayslett July 10 1952.jpg
Ande w Cream Separator Nov 1954.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom