Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

RattyMouse · Feb 3, 2017

So is this P30 film excessively soft or what?

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

RattyMouse said:
So is this P30 film excessively soft or what?

Each frame is a piece of jewerly.

RattyMouse · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Each frame is a piece of jewerly.

Not a very helpful phrase.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Sheet film version one day would be nice, too!

4x5 sheets are relatively easy for us to produce and it's potentially the next film we introduce. We have two things to do first. We have to get manufacturing truly up to speed so we can deliver on the OVERWHELMING response to the announcement - and we have to progress P30 from ALPHA to the "final" version. Once those two pieces are in place, we can produce some batches of 4x5 sheets completely in-house!

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Mackinaw said:
What type of chemistry can be used to process this new P-30 B&W film? And how about development times?
Jim B.

Next week we are going to post some in-depth details about selected images. Stay tuned.

We are of course still testing various developers, timings, temperatures, etc. and by the time we are ready to open the shop, we will have assembled a "Best Practices" sheet for P30 ALPHA.

macfred · Feb 3, 2017

RattyMouse said:
So is this P30 film excessively soft or what?

Yes, with "tuggable, huggable softness" ... (another commercial phrase)

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Awesome News Dave!
Yes I think this is a wise decision to make use of the tested coatings to on-sell them to recoup costs is a very good move, for the same reasons PE has made.

It looks like my guesses were correct that that first coating was indeed P30! Although others claimed here that it did not look "panchromatic"

I assume this means that the coater is successfully coating film now also without the bubbles etc?

I will be emailing you soon, as I had paid for some extra rolls of colour film on top of my kickstarter reward.
I think I would be keen to grab a roll or two of this from you, so was wondering if i can exchange some of that amount of extra film for some P30

Yes, we felt it was more important to get a product out into the world than stuck to our guns about color-only. And yes, a few guessed P30 panchro correctly!

The bubbles issue was a flaw in the emulsion, not the coater. This fixed before the batch we sent out for sampling. And the scratches seen on some sample images were from a flaw in the refurbishment of the Dead Link Removed - next week, we're talking to Beppe about how this was fixed.

But we were happy to post the "warts and all" photos because we think the inherent quality shines through. Also, we were at the point where we just couldn't help ourselves and wanted to share the news.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

davidwalkersharpe said:
Great news about the film! I've filled in my survey, and will be purchasing some extra rolls of P30 when it's available

I just did a quick Google News search for Film Ferrania and came up with this:

http://www.savonanews.it/2017/01/11...mila-euro-per-limpianto-di-illuminazione.html

Now, my Italian's not great, but Google Translate came to the rescue somewhat. Are the team involved in this project at all, Dave?

We are not directly involved, no - but of course we are helping when we can. Also, one of the people working on the museum project spends a few days each month in the LRF helping us to get a handle on our vast information archive because her expertise is in taxonomies and big data management.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
...we can produce some batches of 4x5 sheets completely in-house!

On triacetate or polyester base and of what thickness?

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Hoping the Panchro 80 will be coated on PET base so that would be perfect for reversal processing

It's triacetate base. "All natural"

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Sal Santamaura said:
On triacetate or polyester base and of what thickness?

On triacetate for sure - but don't know the thickness yet. Specs like that will come only once we have produced some tests.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Early methods of sensitizing silver left dead grains which were useless. These were called "high silver" or "silver rich" materials. As technology improved, the process for sensitizing became better and silver levels were decreased. As they were, grain went up but so did sharpness and thus, they made finer grains at the same speed. (following me so far?). Thus, today's films are finer grained but lower silver with better sharpness and equal or higher speed. Today, about 300 mg would equal 500 - 1000 in days gone bye (mg/ft square).

So, there it is simply.

PE

In our case, the P30 formula was derived directly from the original handwritten formula we found from the late 50s, with some tweaks from a "formalized" production document we found from 1970. Both called for 5g/sqm of silver and we simply went for it. Obviously, we can't spend a lot of time on R&D with just 6 people in the factory, so most "R&D" has been to find formulae that we can produce without alteration - especially if they were actually produced on the precision coater in the LRF.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Not a very helpful phrase.

Maybe not for APUG folks, but it was spoken with passion and was not scripted by our "marketing department" (me).

Cholentpot · Feb 3, 2017

Diapositivo said:
In thanking you in behalf of all Italians for the kind words, may I suggest you include music in the list? (Opera lover here)

But ya know, good things take time...an Italian clock has 12 hours but who's checking?

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
4x5 sheets are relatively easy for us to produce and it's potentially the next film we introduce. We have two things to do first. We have to get manufacturing truly up to speed so we can deliver on the OVERWHELMING response to the announcement - and we have to progress P30 from ALPHA to the "final" version. Once those two pieces are in place, we can produce some batches of 4x5 sheets completely in-house!

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear. Thank you!

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

mshchem said:
The big deal is these guys gave pulled off a miracle by getting an abandoned industrial park going again. Great accomplishment. It will only get easier with some income coming in. Let's hope the best. Bravo

This is truly the Big Deal about the announcement, even if it's not so sexy to discuss. If you read what I wrote back in December after my visit, it should be clear that we have have totally "bootstrapped" one of the most complicated manufacturing processes ever invented - and our Team of Six made it work ON THE FIRST TRY!

bvy · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Maybe not for APUG folks, but it was spoken with passion and was not scripted by our "marketing department" (me).

It's a fine phrase. Speaks to the "high silver content" too.

Sorry if I missed it, but do you recommend a developer for P30? How were your samples developed?

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Diapositivo said:
Crazy silver content... original P30... I don't think I buy all of the marketing hype, but I'm very glad the project is progressing, and I condone some little bit of dolus bonus
Avanti così, we trust you. You are my heroes.

Come on you guys... You've got to allow us a tiny bit of marketing-speak! We do need to sell our products to people with varying degrees of expertise about film that often fall below the threshold of the average APUG user...

Plus it's not hype. As PE confirms, 5g/sqm is "on the high end" and the film IS made using original formula that was slightly updated in 1970 for production on the precision coater in the LRF.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
Will it have the nice "Ferrania" border markings too?

The last time I spoke to Nicola - Marco had in fact found the original signature mask. I need to follow up, but I'm pretty sure it will will use the old "Ferrania script" signature!

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Then why not buying the eFKe formulas and start making their emulsions again?

Because we can't buy anything, to be perfectly frank - and why buy some other brand's formulae when we have 90+ years of documentation about Ferrania products?

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

RattyMouse said:
This P30 film was described in the video as "soft". Anyone know exactly what that means? Is the lack of layers mean that this film is not capable of making images in the same way that current monochrome films can? I'm not sure how much I would use a film that was excessively soft.

When Nicola says "soft" he is referring to the depth and range of gray tones.

In fact, if the film is processed in D-96, the tonal curve is quite amazing with an extremely wide range of gray tones. Nicola's "horse" picture was processed in D-96. But D-96 is not a common developer in most labs and nearly impossible to purchase for "average" people.

Most of the test photos don't quite capture this because they were processed in various ways and scanned by our test labs. Some processing techniques were better than others - but it was a TEST to see what would happen. The factory received data from almost every single frame shot for the test, as well as processing info, and are making some adjustments this week to make the film easier to process with a variety of systems. (As I mentioned in another response, we're going to discuss this further next week).

That said, P30 35mm will remain in ALPHA until we find the right tweaks to make the film useable by "any photographer, any camera, any lab, anywhere". We're going to set up some forms on our site for those who want to feed information back to the factory once the ALPHA film is out in the wild. This data will be critical to save time in migrating the film out of ALPHA to the final version.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Maybe not for APUG folks, but it was spoken with passion and was not scripted by our "marketing department" (me).

I sincerely think that "Each frame is a piece of jewerly" is a really good slogan not only for P30 but for pictures made in film. So much that i'm considering putting this phrase into my APUG signature.

Also, considering that The Team (the Ferrania team at the LRC) is going to take into account the feedback received from users of P30 ALPHA, we can also say that this is "The film that listens to you"...

FILM Ferrania said:
Come on you guys... You've got to allow us a tiny bit of marketing-speak! We do need to sell our products to people with varying degrees of expertise about film that often fall below the threshold of the average APUG user...

+1

Power to you Dave!

Thanks for the replies in particular the clarification regarding the formula of P30. From what you mention, it is almost exactly the SAME classic P30, which sounds very interesting.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Not a very helpful phrase.

I can be of help for decreasing your seriousness level. Can't help in other way, sorry.

Cholentpot · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Come on you guys... You've got to allow us a tiny bit of marketing-speak! We do need to sell our products to people with varying degrees of expertise about film that often fall below the threshold of the average APUG user...

Plus it's not hype. As PE confirms, 5g/sqm is "on the high end" and the film IS made using original formula that was slightly updated in 1970 for production on the precision coater in the LRF.

I know better and I'll still fall for the flowery lingo. Make it sound nice, marketing is where it's at. When I shoot the stuff I'll be bound to mention the silver content because it sounds good to ears.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Now, the business of FILM Ferrania is color, but I think they could have some commercial success if they package P30 film in 126 format.

It's going to be quite a while before we can afford to set up the 126 finishing machine, but since we plan to make P30 forever (and probably other speeds, but maybe not using the old names) - eventually there will be a P30 126.

Meyer Trioplan said:
I would love another supplier of 127 film and since Ferrania has a history as a maker of 127 cameras, would be a perfect fit.

The 127 finishing machine is far less complex to install than the 126 machine. And we have a very interested B2B customer... But you shouldn't expect it this year unless money rains from the sky and lands on the roof of the LRF.

We must focus our attention on color reversal and our four primary formats before we can dig into the storage building and pull machines to install.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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