Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Meyer Trioplan]

Like many things, this will need to wait a while. If things go our way this year, 2018 will be the "Year of Odd Formats" for FILM Ferrania.

Thanks for taking time to sort out all of our comments and provide answers... I'll be gearing up the Univex for some "00" format Ferrania! (Actually I'll cut that down from 120)

But in all seriousness, if you can somehow cut for 116 and 122 once the "normal" stuff has been worked out, you should find some willing takers.

 

[MartinP]

I never heard that. I did hear from a lot of people that were bothered by the loss of the last 25 speed film...

This material is available (manufactured by Harman, perhaps) in 135, 120, common sheet sizes and there is also a (rather different) Ortho material at the same ISO.

 

[RattyMouse]

Look at the problems that Kodak, Ilford and Fuji are having with backing papers. They all had it right when they made their own, but when they outsourced it to other companies, using their own formulas, the backing paper problems began. This is no easy task. Inks, black absorbing paper and paper itself must be each perfect for the job. Any slight error will ruin the paper and finally the film.

PE

PE, the dearth of Fuji examples of this problem is to me, very very telling. I have yet to see a single case of Fuji's paper causing issues. Are you 100% sure that they are using the exact same paper as everyone else?

 

[cuthbert]

Did you contribute to the original E-6 Kickstarter? If so, you should get a notice once their store is up and running. Mid-February is what they’re hoping for.

Jim B.

Yes original backer.

I receive their kickstarter updates and I sent few mails through the years but they never answered me...I changed address and I informed them but again getting in touch with Ferrania has been impossible for me.

 

[flavio81]

PE, the dearth of Fuji examples of this problem is to me, very very telling. I have yet to see a single case of Fuji's paper causing issues. Are you 100% sure that they are using the exact same paper as everyone else?

PE did not say Fuji was using the same provider as everybody else. Nor he said that everybody is using the same provider.

I also never had a problem with Fuji 120 rolls.

The only times I had problems were with Lomography 120 film -- in particular there was a roll of 400 speed B/W film (repackaged Tmax 400) with very very strong imprinting of frame numbers on the picture.

 

[Nzoomed]

Bit annoying with the whole backing paper issues that 120 film faces.
You would have thought that Kodak and Fuji would have kept making their own paper if it indeed costs more than the film itself, as mentioned here outsourcing would increase costs.

Hopefully Ferrania may have some of the equipment for making the paper still (if they used to produce their own)
Backing paper is also required for 126 and 110 film.

This may be the sort of thing where all the film manufacturers need to come together and find a solution that works for everyone, if they can all share the same supplier who can make it all to specs, preferably a film manufacturer should look at producing the backing paper.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Yes original backer.

I receive their kickstarter updates and I sent few mails through the years but they never answered me...I changed address and I informed them but again getting in touch with Ferrania has been impossible for me.

Getting in touch with us is hardly impossible. We have contact forms on our site, I post here pretty regularly and I think you can email me from here - or at least message me, you can contact us through Kickstarter and I'm sure there are one or two other ways...
If you "sent few mails through the years" and we didn't answer, I personally apologize because that's my job.
My email address is d.bias@filmferrania.it - email away!

 

[MattKing]

You would have thought that Kodak and Fuji would have kept making their own paper if it indeed costs more than the film itself, as mentioned here outsourcing would increase costs.

But selling or even shutting down the production facilities that produce backing paper and terminating the employment of the people who did the work can make a huge positive difference to a balance sheet.
You do understand, don't you, that a backing paper production line big enough to service the film markets of the 1980s might have sufficient capacity to service 100 times the film markets of today? And that it costs a fortune to maintain radically underused, high capacity production facilities.

 

[cuthbert]

Getting in touch with us is hardly impossible. We have contact forms on our site, I post here pretty regularly and I think you can email me from here - or at least message me, you can contact us through Kickstarter and I'm sure there are one or two other ways...
If you "sent few mails through the years" and we didn't answer, I personally apologize because that's my job.
My email address is d.bias@filmferrania.it - email away!

Already did that.

For Christmas 2014 the backers were supposed to receive a gift, a postcard I assume, I haven't received it, wrote to their mail and never got an answer.

As at the moment I am located in Italy I wrote to their main email address, as I understand you take care of the NA market.

 

[Nzoomed]

But selling or even shutting down the production facilities that produce backing paper and terminating the employment of the people who did the work can make a huge positive difference to a balance sheet.
You do understand, don't you, that a backing paper production line big enough to service the film markets of the 1980s might have sufficient capacity to service 100 times the film markets of today? And that it costs a fortune to maintain radically underused, high capacity production facilities.

Im actually surprised it was even possible, I mean, its a very special product. I would have thought that the equipment for cutting it etc would have to have been designed and owned by the film manufacturers themselves.
If special inks were used, you think Kodak could have supplied them to the people printing, but perhaps their machinery cant work with it properly?

IDK, but what was the issue with the numbers being "impressed" into the film?
Was it causing a chemical reaction with the emulsion?

 

[MattKing]

IDK, but what was the issue with the numbers being "impressed" into the film?
Was it causing a chemical reaction with the emulsion?

Most likely.
And it may be due to changes in ink. Or maybe something else.
The remaining supplier also has huge minimum order requirements. When Ilford was considering whether or not to spend about 300,000 English pounds to rebuild/refurbish their 220 "finishing" machine in order to be able to continue offering 220 film, one of the reasons they decided against doing so was that the minimum order quantities for the backing paper leaders and trailers would have also required them to buy (and pay ahead of time for) several years worth (given current volumes) of those leaders and trailers.
The tolerances for backing paper are very narrow. Cutting it to size is a specialized endeavour that requires the sort of equipment and people that only specialized production facilities have.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Im actually surprised it was even possible, I mean, its a very special product. I would have thought that the equipment for cutting it etc would have to have been designed and owned by the film manufacturers themselves.
If special inks were used, you think Kodak could have supplied them to the people printing, but perhaps their machinery cant work with it properly?

IDK, but what was the issue with the numbers being "impressed" into the film?
Was it causing a chemical reaction with the emulsion?

Making the paper is a very specialized science. Kodak would probably buy a master roll of the paper and slit and chop it to order rather than have the manufacturer do it. That is just a guess though.

Fuji does not use the same paper as Kodak and Ilford, but samples are shown here and have had reference made to that problem along with references to posts here on APUG.

PE

 

[Peter Schrager]

Kodak could have kept production or scaled it down and sold to everyone else...I can't believe this backing paper issue is rocket science..

 

[Peter Schrager]

Sorry I forgot that Perez was busy running kodak into the ground

 

[Photo Engineer]

Don't forget Peter, that Ilford was caught by this as well.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

Kodak could have kept production or scaled it down and sold to everyone else...I can't believe this backing paper issue is rocket science..

Yes this is possible, although Fuji and kodak had different printing, and this would make it harder.
You would need the master roll printed in one go with fuji, ilford and Kodak and then would have to be slit between each section, I guess this is doable, but would need to be agreed on by all parties, I think something like this could potentially work for all the brands if they come to some sort of agreement, its going to help everyone (and the cause for film) if such an arrangement was made.

 

[MattKing]

You would need the master roll printed in one go with fuji, ilford and Kodak and then would have to be slit between each section, I guess this is doable, but would need to be agreed on by all parties

Haven't spent much time in the marketplace, have you .

 

[Nzoomed]

Haven't spent much time in the marketplace, have you .

no, but i can see its going to even be more of a problem if its intended to reintroduce 127, 126 and 110 films (lomography are obviously getting the paper from somewhere)

 

[MattKing]

Kodak could have kept production or scaled it down and sold to everyone else...I can't believe this backing paper issue is rocket science..

Nope, just really specialized, with really narrow tolerances. The sort of thing that is a bugger to deal with while achieving both high quality and economies of scale.

 

[Prest_400]

no, but i can see its going to even be more of a problem if its intended to reintroduce 127, 126 and 110 films (lomography are obviously getting the paper from somewhere)

I have to try yet Lomography CN in 120, supposedly their paper is different and not as "waxed" as Kodak, Fuji & Ilford. But they also ran into the same problems, even more pronounced, saw reports about paper issues.
Supposedly their CN 120 says "made in China", film could very well Kodak contract coated and finished there. Maybe using some chinese facilities.

 

[Nzoomed]

I have to try yet Lomography CN in 120, supposedly their paper is different and not as "waxed" as Kodak, Fuji & Ilford. But they also ran into the same problems, even more pronounced, saw reports about paper issues.
Supposedly their CN 120 says "made in China", film could very well Kodak contract coated and finished there. Maybe using some chinese facilities.

I would suspect they have a conversion facility in china perhaps that is packaging the stuff in various formats slitting down from bulk rolls.
I know that Lomography had been using Agfa aviphot negative in their CN films in 110 format and 120 etc.

Now that this is no longer made, they will be sourcing from other companies.

They basically package any kind of film they can get their hands on, as the markets change with deleted lines all the time as we well know.

I also think Ferrania would be able to partner up well with Lomography eventually, as I know for a fact that they would like to sell 126 film and no one has the cartridges or conversion equipment available. (except Ferrania! lol)

So its very possible that Ferrania will have a good customer to sell 126 film to, even if it is rebranded as lomography. I could potentially see Lomography asking Ferrania to ask them to convert other bulk film into 126 format, as they need someone with the machine to do so.

But this all depends on the management at Ferrania, as obviously this is potentially a conflict of interest, but such a partnership would ensure some income for getting the 126 converting line running.

 

[flavio81]

I would suspect they have a conversion facility in china perhaps that is packaging the stuff in various formats slitting down from bulk rolls.
I know that Lomography had been using Agfa aviphot negative in their CN films in 110 format and 120 etc.

Lomography has repackaged from the following brands:

Color reversal: Agfa Aviphot 200
Color negative: Ferrania and Kodak, speeds 100,400,800.
B&W: Foma Fomapan 100, Kodak Tmax 400, and i think another film from Kodak or Foma.
"Purple" C41 film was supposedly made by Adox and/or Inoviscoat.

Most of these films had the same backing paper in 120 format, so the conversion seems to have been done by the same company, not by the film manufacturers. As you say, probably in China, however the boxes said other countries, not only china: "Made in the EU", "Made in Italy", "Made in Belgium"(or was it Germany?)

Since they have sourced from so many companies, i doubt they would see any problem in doing the 126 deal with Ferrania.

 

[MattKing]

The other complicating factor with the backing paper is that it isn't the same thickness everywhere. The edges are a different thickness than the centre.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, it is tapered and slightly wider to prevent light leaks.

PE

 

[cmacd123]

In fact, if the film is processed in D-96, the tonal curve is quite amazing with an extremely wide range of gray tones. Nicola's "horse" picture was processed in D-96. But D-96 is not a common developer in most labs and nearly impossible to purchase for "average" people.

D96 is of course the developer that replaced D76 in the Movie Business. the formula is very similar and not too exotic. just download part 15 from ... http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Supp...ocessing_Manuals/H24_Modules_Online/index.htm

Lomography :

Most of these films had the same backing paper in 120 format, so the conversion seems to have been done by the same company, not by the film manufacturers. As you say, probably in China, however the boxes said other countries, not only china: "Made in the EU",

I have only tried the Lomography 100 and 400 B&W. the package of 400 I received was "made in China" and had backing paper ghosts. the paper did mention lomography so it was made for that product. the 100 looked like Foma with different paper labels at each end. I suspect that Foma has a unique source for their own paper. Without making commercial speculation, I imagine that Foma does entertain custom packaging jobs for time to time.

Back when ferania was part of 3M I am sure that 3M had the expertise to make backing paper, but perhaps elsewhere in tehir factory system.