Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
Fuji did discontinue though there was demand.

With every announcement, Fujifilm clearly states the reason for the discontinuation is due to lack of sales. If there is demand, why are there no sales?

Harry Callahan said:
Discontinuation of products doesn´t necessarily indicate poor sales ---> Ektachrome.

??? Explain this (from the archives); Kodak announced yesterday that they are discontinuing their Ektachrome E100G, Ektachrome E100VS and Elite Chrome Extra Color 100 films. As was stated in an official press release on their website, the decision is “due to a steady decrease in sales and customer usage

Both major film producers clearly state that when they discontinued films, it is due to lack of demand. That results in lack of sales. You are choosing to ignore this clear message.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
And isn´t there allready an undertaking to bring back the peel-apart-film Fuji discontinued about 2 years ago?

Nope. Fujifilm stated that all machinery to produce this film has been scrapped.

Wallendo · Aug 27, 2018

New Ektachrome will not be available in 120 format, at least initially, and will likely never be available in 126 or 127 format. If Ferrania products are available in those formats, it will give them a foot in the door. After that, their success or failure will be determined by quality, quality-control, availability, and value.

The real elephant in the room is Fujifilm. If they decide that Provia and Velvia don't contribute enough to the bottom line, there will be room in the market for both Kodak and Ferrania to market E-6 films. If Fuji continues to pump out E-6 films, Ferrania will likely need to focus on niche-format B&W and possibly higher-speed E6. I personally would buy a ISO 400 E6 film (but I don't buy enough to move the market).

BAC1967 · Aug 27, 2018

Discontinuing for lack of demand could also have something to do with Fuji and Kodak doing large production runs. This may give an advantage for a company like Ferrania doing small scale production. Clearly there is still some demand, especially for movie stock that Fuji does not produce.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Wallendo said:
New Ektachrome will not be available in 120 format, at least initially, and will likely never be available in 126 or 127 format. If Ferrania products are available in those formats, it will give them a foot in the door. After that, their success or failure will be determined by quality, quality-control, availability, and value.

The real elephant in the room is Fujifilm. If they decide that Provia and Velvia don't contribute enough to the bottom line, there will be room in the market for both Kodak and Ferrania to market E-6 films. If Fuji continues to pump out E-6 films, Ferrania will likely need to focus on niche-format B&W and possibly higher-speed E6. I personally would buy a ISO 400 E6 film (but I don't buy enough to move the market).

High speed E6 film certainly is a glaring hole in the market. I used to shoot a lot of Provia 400X and loved the results. Sad to think that such a great film is no more.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

@RattyMouse:

As is said Fuji refused to sell non-perforated 35mm-film to converters who do cine film. One S8-cartridge has as much film inside like 6 or 8 135-cartridges, so cine film is what a film-manufacturer really wants to sell. Fuji refused in several cases though there was demand in each case.
I mean that Kodak did discontinue Ektachrome "due to low demand" and now they´re bringing it back, though demand is said to be decreasing all the time. Avichrome was said to last for 10 years at least, now 5 years later its gone.
I´m not ignoring what manufactueres state, i´m just not convinced in every case of "low demand".
At least there was an undertaking in bringing back peel-apart-film i´ve seen it somewhere. Now i could ask why did Fuji scrap the machines when there were people interested in bringing back peel-apart? Just the same like letting GK-Film die. Fuji is fed up by analog film.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
@RattyMouse:
Fuji is fed up by analog film.

That's why I am fed up with them. Bring back Acros! Bring back 400X! Reala 100!

Agulliver · Aug 27, 2018

Fuji's problem is not that there is no demand.....it is that Fuji are unable to make anything other than very large batches of any type of film. Film Ferrania is being set up to manufacture films in smaller quantities than the old Ferrania company. Kodak have altered their production to enable them to make smaller runs - hence P3200 coming back and the upcoming new Ektachrome.

Fuji have been unable to do this, they are stuck with machinery and processes which were appropriate to the volumes of production 20+ years ago. This means that while there is demand for Velvia and other products such as the Superia CN films....Fuji produce so much in one go that it isn't all sold by the time it reaches it's "use by" date.

That is the reason why Fuji keep axing films. Not that there is no demand, and not that demand isn't rising. It's that demand is too low to sustain the kind of factory that Fuji are left with.

With regard to pack film it was a huge shame. I only discovered it a few months after they axed it. The five packs I bought will likely be the only ones I ever use. Sadly Fuji's culture is to destroy factory equipment when they stop a product line....rather than make it available to someone else.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Agulliver said:
Fuji's problem is not that there is no demand.....it is that Fuji are unable to make anything other than very large batches of any type of film.

A guy here at Phototrio is trying to sell all of 25 rolls of Provia 100. He has lowered the price several times now (today even) with no one buying. This is in-date film, not expired. Even well below cost, no one is buying. Some demand. Meanwhile, 10 year old expired C41 film sells almost immediately.

Agulliver said:
Film Ferrania is being set up to manufacture films in smaller quantities than the old Ferrania company. Kodak have altered their production to enable them to make smaller runs - hence P3200 coming back and the upcoming new Ektachrome.

Videos published show that building 38 is still being used.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

RattyMouse said:
That's why I am fed up with them. Bring back Acros! Bring back 400X! Reala 100!

So am i. I´m seriously thinking about not buying Fuji if they brought back some cine film. But i have a feeling that i won´t come into a situation where i will have to think about that...

railwayman3 · Aug 27, 2018

Prof_Pixel said:
A VERY good point! That's Kodak's Achilles heel - they are equipped to make LOTS of something and it's not clear they can be successful in making a little of something.

Kodak obviously think that there is a sufficient demand for a "basic" 100 speed Ektachrome 35mm film for production to be profitable (whatever the size of the plant they are currently using). I doubt that they have any interest in small-scale production of either less usual sizes or speeds at this stage.

And, as RattyMouse, suggests, if Kodak take up the lion's share of the profitable "bread-and-butter" 35mm 100 speed Ektachrome market before Ferrania gets any E6 to market, it isn't likely to leave much demand for the basic Ferraniachrome ? It's going to take a lot of the harder-to-produce small scale 126, 127, etc., to make up the profit if the basic demand for 100,000 films p.a. (or whatever figure you care to choose choose) has already been taken up by quality product from Kodak.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

Agulliver said:
Fuji's problem is not that there is no demand.....it is that Fuji are unable to make anything other than very large batches of any type of film...

And that´s another thing about Fuji i don´t understand. I once read somewhere that it would take Kodak about 20 Mio. $ to downsize production capacity to nowadays markets. Ok, Kodak was bankrupt they have to struggle. But Fuji sailed through the digital revolution without problems, they went into pharmaceutics before the digital revolution began and they definetely could afford a downsize and keep producing analog film as a hobby let´s say. Or because of tradition. Arn´t the japanese those guys who own 300 year old katanas, practice old martial arts all their life, maintain bonsias for decades and are so into keeping traditions (i mean they still hunt whales and slaughter dolphins because its their tradition)?
Fuji is so long around it also could count as a tradition, but they axe it like i don´t know.
...but the american cowboy having dollar signs in his eyes and willing to sell his own grandmother for a few bucks keeps on producing film and even is bringing back some discontinued emulsions.
Man, i really thought i knew this world ( )...

MattKing · Aug 27, 2018

Historically, most of the confectionering (cutting to size and packaging and edge printing) of film has been done by the film manufacturers themselves.
In a world where Eastman Kodak isn't involved even with retailers, much less end users, when it comes to still film (all they do is manufacture it for wholesale), it certainly isn't inconceivable that third parties end up being the ones who confectioner less common formats and sizes of film.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

railwayman3 said:
Kodak obviously think that there is a sufficient demand for a "basic" 100 speed Ektachrome 35mm film for production to be profitable (whatever size of plant they are currently using).
If this leads to a demand for 120 size (possible) they may give that a go, or even other speeds (IMHO unlikely). But I doubt they're very concerned about those possibilities at this stage, and I feel sure that 126, 127 and all the other rare slzes don't even come into their thinking, particularly as these would, as you suggest, inevitably need to be on such a little scale.

Those exotic formats should be Ferranias strength, which is one of the reasons why i don´t think that Ektachrome will kill Ferrania stone dead.

BAC1967 · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
...but the american cowboy having dollar signs in his eyes and willing to sell his own grandmother for a few bucks keeps on producing film and even is bringing back some discontinued emulsions.

For the record, I'm American and I never sold my grandmother.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

railwayman3 said:
Kodak obviously think that there is a sufficient demand for a "basic" 100 speed Ektachrome 35mm film for production to be profitable (whatever the size of the plant they are currently using). I doubt that they have any interest in small-scale production of either less usual sizes or speeds at this stage.

And, as RattyMouse, suggests, if Kodak take up the lion's share of the profitable "bread-and-butter" 35mm 100 speed Ektachrome market before Ferrania gets any E6 to market, it isn't likely to leave much demand for the basic Ferraniachrome ? It's going to take a lot of the harder-to-produce small scale 126, 127, etc., to make up the profit if the basic demand for 100,000 films p.a. (or whatever figure you care to choose choose) has already been taken up by quality product from Kodak.

(Ah, an edit...)

We`ll see. As Dave said: "Plus, we're already proven that we are able to survive on practically nothing."
Kodak went bankrupt having a lot more money and customers than Ferrania.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

BAC1967 said:
For the record, I'm American and I never sold my grandmother.

I put an " " into brackets to show that i´m heavily handling stereotypes and i´m not eager to offend anyone. In case i have i appologize in due form.

1L6E6VHF · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
@RattyMouse:

<snip>
At least there was an undertaking in bringing back peel-apart-film i´ve seen it somewhere. Now i could ask why did Fuji scrap the machines when there were people interested in bringing back peel-apart? Just the same like letting GK-Film die. Fuji is fed up by analog film.

Fuji, however, may have had alterior motives for discontinuing FP-100C. With FP-100C, they were only selling film, not cameras. The film was being used in Polaroid cameras as old as half of a century.
Fuji had been making a filmstock that was competing with its own Instax lines.
By scrapping FP-100C (and scrapping the manufacturing equipment to keep it out of the hands of potential competitors), they guaranteed a captive market for instant print photography. To shoot Instax film, you'll need an Instax camera.

Unlike Polaroid (after the introduction of the Swinger), Fuji does not attempt to use the razor-and-blades business model. Their cameras are not cheap.

Losing FP-100C was a bummer. It gave reliability and color fidelty far superior to any instant film Polaroid ever produced (if you can forgive that luminosity curve reversal - the black hole sun effect.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

Now that´s even more bitter than true low demand. Maybe they axe analog to sell more digital cameras?

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
(Ah, an edit...)

We`ll see. As Dave said: "Plus, we're already proven that we are able to survive on practically nothing."
Kodak went bankrupt having a lot more money and customers than Ferrania.

The bankruptcy occurred because there was no money to pay the bills due.

Agulliver · Aug 27, 2018

RattyMouse said:
Videos published show that building 38 is still being used.

Kodak have stated that they downsized production in order to make Ektachrome viable, and that P3200 was also a by-product of this ability to produce smaller batches.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Agulliver said:
Kodak have stated that they downsized production in order to make Ektachrome viable, and that P3200 was also a by-product of this ability to produce smaller batches.

I heard the podcast, but from the video I saw published recently, Building 38 was the site of production.

Berkeley Mike · Aug 27, 2018

Agulliver said:
Kodak have stated that they downsized production in order to make Ektachrome viable, and that P3200 was also a by-product of this ability to produce smaller batches.

#4089 in this thread:

"Any film manufacturer participating in the film today has had to scale down to accommodate today's much smaller market. Capacities have to be maintained at a certain level to make a profit. Splitting off resources to manufacture a product with a more limited usage in a market that is already feeling limited usage is less likely in that model."

MattKing · Aug 27, 2018

RattyMouse said:
I heard the podcast, but from the video I saw published recently, Building 38 was the site of production.

It is still Building 38. From the sounds of things though, they have developed methods of making Building 38 work effectively with smaller and less costly production runs.

Prof_Pixel · Aug 27, 2018

Agulliver said:
Kodak have stated that they downsized production in order to make Ektachrome viable, and that P3200 was also a by-product of this ability to produce smaller batches.

As a retired Kodak engineer I hate to say it, but the long term viability of Kodak as a manufacturer is anything but certain

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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