Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[RattyMouse]

Don't feed the troll guys.

Anyone who dares have a different opinion is a troll. Well argued. You fit right in with today's political climate.

 

[MattKing]

Factory outlets selling product that didn't meet quality standards for shipping to retailers is perfectly common.

And they typically charge less, substantially less, which is why outlet malls are so popular.

Most of the products you will find now at the so-called "outlet" malls is actually specially produced for sale at slightly lower prices (and higher profit) at outlet malls.

And as for manufacturers producing alpha and beta products, I have just two words to say: "firmware update"

 

[peter k.]

You just made my day. Thanks!

Mine to, thanks for the update.. where looking forward to the 120 also... thanks p.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Don't feed the troll guys.

This cannot be stated emphatically or often enough.

 

[Vonder]

*sigh*

Still no interest in their B&W film. They missed their chance to have me as a customer when I bit on the E-6 bait and switch. I doubt with Kodak getting back into slide film there'll be any market for their E-6 offering. But I amuse myself greatly by even typing "their E-6 offering"

 

[Agulliver]

Don't feed the troll guys.

Hmm...I'd not considered him to be a troll as he does also post pertinent and useful material. I think he just gets his knickers in a twist and on his high horse a lot. Not the sort of person I'd want to talk to over a pint.

 

[RattyMouse]

Hmm...I'd not considered him to be a troll as he does also post pertinent and useful material. I think he just gets his knickers in a twist and on his high horse a lot. Not the sort of person I'd want to talk to over a pint.

Funny you'd say that. In my past 3 companies I have been routinely assigned international work, traveling to nearly 20 countries, living in Asia twice for a period of 6 and a half years, all because my managers routinely acknowledge that I'm about as diplomatic a person as you could find. I'm perfectly comfortable working with people from different cultures, speaking different languages, working complex, high pressure problems. Many people smarter than me, can't work with such a vast differing array of people. I've seen many many personal conflicts explode into an ugly mess. My personal interactions have earned me an almost unlimited supply of trust from those I deal with.

I'm a data driven scientist and person by nature. Sometimes people don't want to hear data that either conflicts with their world view or how they want their world to be. Some launch personal attacks when their viewpoints are threatened. Me? If the data tells me I'm wrong, I adapt to the new reality as described by science or finance.

But I do thank you for not joining in with the troll comments. That's the lowest form of intellectual bankruptcy. Absolutely identical as yelling "fake news". Same crowd.

 

[swchris]

Most of the products you will find now at the so-called "outlet" malls is actually specially produced for sale at slightly lower prices (and higher profit) at outlet malls.

Lower price and also lower quality.

 

[warden]

Funny you'd say that. In my past 3 companies I have been routinely assigned international work, traveling to nearly 20 countries, living in Asia twice for a period of 6 and a half years, all because my managers routinely acknowledge that I'm about as diplomatic a person as you could find. I'm perfectly comfortable working with people from different cultures, speaking different languages, working complex, high pressure problems. Many people smarter than me, can't work with such a vast differing array of people. I've seen many many personal conflicts explode into an ugly mess. My personal interactions have earned me an almost unlimited supply of trust from those I deal with.

I'm a data driven scientist and person by nature. Sometimes people don't want to hear data that either conflicts with their world view or how they want their world to be. Some launch personal attacks when their viewpoints are threatened. Me? If the data tells me I'm wrong, I adapt to the new reality as described by science or finance.

But I do thank you for not joining in with the troll comments. That's the lowest form of intellectual bankruptcy. Absolutely identical as yelling "fake news". Same crowd.

I'm also in the "not a troll but we're not having a pint" camp. Is there any chance that like many of us you are quite different online than you are in person?

Data driven, yes, definitely I see that in you, 100%, and I appreciate the info about the Kodak stock tracking and whatnot. (I mean, who else is actually digging through all that stuff?) But Diplomatic? No! Not at all, not even remotely close, assuming we're using the same dictionary. There is no diplomacy. I'm sorry man, but I'm not seeing it.

 

[Harry Callahan]

*sigh*

Still no interest in their B&W film. They missed their chance to have me as a customer when I bit on the E-6 bait and switch. I doubt with Kodak getting back into slide film there'll be any market for their E-6 offering. But I amuse myself greatly by even typing "their E-6 offering"

Ferrania might have a good market in europe. Ektachrome will have to be shipped and taxed to europe so if Ferraniachrome is like 25% cheaper on an european shelf they´ll be the "good`n cheap" alternative to Ektachrome in europe (there once was a brand called "good`n cheap" in my country. They sold products like milk and noodles and the quality wasn´t as good as with a premium product, but the price was lower and they had customers for years). As they said they allready have ideas to improve the Scotchchrome-formula it will be interesting to see how far they can get.
Furthermore a lot analog shooters go for a "special look" and Ferraniachrome will be another "flavour" for those and surely have its fans.

 

[railwayman3]

Most of the products you will find now at the so-called "outlet" malls is actually specially produced for sale at slightly lower prices (and higher profit) at outlet malls.

And as for manufacturers producing alpha and beta products, I have just two words to say: "firmware update"

If I need a shirt, I can buy a branded name at full price , knowing that it should be comfortable, fit well, last for some time and look good at an important event. Or I can choose buy a shirt cheaply at an outlet, knowing it may have faults, or be of lower quality, but still should give value for money, perhaps just for casual or work wear.

If I buy a Kodak (or other) branded film at full price, I can also be confident that it is of reliable and consistent quality, (and hopefully the new Ektachrome will continue this reliability at a fair price). But, in that case, will I ever need or want to buy an "alpha" or "beta" E6 film if it has to go through all the difficulties which Ferrania have had with P30 before it becomes reliable or openly available ? And P30 has never been competitive on price ? IDK. I'm not knocking, just wondering what the commercial case might be for new Ferraniachrome ?

 

[Arctic amateur]

The film market is full of subjective experiences and preferences ("high silver content", "Tri-X look", etc). Often people praise the "look" of one BW film over all others, disregarding that the inherent difference between BW films of similar sensitivity and technology is much smaller than the variation stemming from process variation, developer choice, printing method, etc. I don't think the enthusiast part of the film market is particularly rational.

I'm not knocking, just wondering what the commercial case might be for new Ferraniachrome ?

Only way to tell for sure is to see what happens if/when it comes to market. If it sells, there is a commercial case for it.

 

[railwayman3]

Only way to tell for sure is to see what happens if/when it comes to market. If it sells, there is a commercial case for it.

I agree entirely, but I think you would have to make that "if it sells in sufficient volume at a price which is profitable to Ferrania.........".

 

[flavio81]

Are you trying to make a version of Ballmer’s “developers” chant?

I love that video. It motivates me a lot. In fact I wish all companies had a person like Ballmer, who appreciates DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS (i mean, software developers, not metol/hydroquinone/phenidone solutions).

Believe it or not, there are many tech companies where being a "developer" is being at the low of the low.

 

[alanrockwood]

Oh complete tosh. Most of my Physics, Mathematics and Electronics textbooks have notes to the effect that the author welcomes mistakes being reported to the publisher. I work in secondary education, have done for 19 years, and the school textbooks are often similarly expected to have mistakes with teachers and students encouraged to report them.

Of course they go through editing, proof-reading....and yet mistakes still get through especially in new or first editions of a book. I am sure that Film Ferrania tested P30 Alpha before manufacturing the batch that they sold. Indeed their website chronicled the initial testing by Nicola, I believe.

Additionally, I was not saying that academic books are alpha products.....I said "one might also add books"....it's another example of an industry where it is accepted that imperfect products will be released and the users are encouraged to report the imperfections by the manufacturer/publisher.

I have written several textbook chapters. In my experience each chapter was reviewed by at least two reviewers who are experts in the field and went through several iterations of reviews. In a recent example, the text has 1888 pages in 81 chapters. I coauthored one of those chapters. If we assume that each chapter had at least two reviewers the book would have been reviewed by at least 162 reviewers. This is in addition to various levels of proofreading. Of course, not all errors will have been caught, but the point is that the text went through a very extensive and rigorous review process.

 

[Harry Callahan]

.....But, in that case, will I ever need or want to buy an "alpha" or "beta" E6 film if it has to go through all the difficulties which Ferrania have had with P30 before it becomes reliable or openly available ? And P30 has never been competitive on price ? IDK. I'm not knocking, just wondering what the commercial case might be for new Ferraniachrome ?

Ferrania is another case. They´re not the big boys having millions of funds, income and a lot of staff. They just cannot provide the service like the big boys can, but they also never claimed to be one of the big boys and regarding the Alpha-stage of P30 they told everyone what to expect. I think most of the people buying Alpha-P30 on the one hand just wanted to try something new and on the other hand wanted to help the undertaking of Ferrania in building a small film-fabrication-business.
P30 Alpha wasn´t competitive on price, but as Dave mentioned they had problems with humidity, clean air leading to a lot of waste and their finishing-partner accepted only small quantities of raw film. Now they have the roof fixed, which should rule out problems with humidity, they are working on the problems regarding clean air and they are working on doing finishing of the raw film in house completely. By that they should be able to offer P30, and later color, at a lower price. Not saying it will be much but there should be possible improvement regarding competitivness of price.
In the end nobody is forced to buy their Alpha- and Beta-products, but there also are the Lomography-guys which buy about anything - and Lomo isn´t even trying to be professional, Ferrania is.

 

[fdonadio]

I love that video. It motivates me a lot. In fact I wish all companies had a person like Ballmer, who appreciates DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS (i mean, software developers, not metol/hydroquinone/phenidone solutions).

Believe it or not, there are many tech companies where being a "developer" is being at the low of the low.

Dude, I am a developer myself (not as my job anymore)... but I don’t like this video. It’s the best example of how not to behave as a CEO. I mean, the part that comes before the “developers” chant.

But, to be true, I am probably biased, as I also don’t like Microsoft and their products.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Manufacturers typically do not charge money for beta products, much less Alpha.

Manufacturers do not typically make alpha or beta products at all.

But what manufacturers do all the time is release a product, then take feedback on that product and later release an updated version of the product.

We chose to make it clear that our first product was not the final version.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I don’t understand why some people refuse to see that the project to try and reboot Ferrania Film is not like any normal commercial venture.

It can’t be judged by the same parameters. By any normal business commercial consideration they shouldn’t have attempted what they have. Business doesn’t have a place for heart, for emotion, for nostalgia. It only cares about money.

I’m intrigued by the Ferrania story. The fact that it is out and in the open tells you all you need to know. Ferrania is a labour of love. It’s absolutely not your usual corporation.

Judging them as if they were is churlish. And tiresome.

Any resemblance we might have to a "normal" commercial venture is entirely coincidental.

 

[RattyMouse]

Manufacturers do not typically make alpha or beta products at all.

But what manufacturers do all the time is release a product, then take feedback on that product and later release an updated version of the product.

We chose to make it clear that our first product was not the final version.

I'm sorry sir, but you do not understand what you are talking about. I have 25 years in manufacturing experience. It is literally impossible to have a manufacturing plant without alpha and beta tests. Do you really think that GM or Ford configure an assembly line and then just start pumping out cars for sale? Absolutely not. One day around suburban Detroit will show you all kinds of cars, taped up beyond recognition driving around. These are brand new models, on the road being tested, taped up so us consumers cannot recognize what specific model they are. Even the tiniest widget maker will produce an alpha production run and then send it back to engineering to make sure all the final parameters are meeting expectations and correcting those which inevitably do not. It takes multiple runs to get the process down right. In my own industry, the chemical industry, our products go through alpha and beta tests and we have a very strict policy of NOT charging a penny for them. We find customers who are willing to trial new products, which they get for free in return. Our engineers and chemists learn from these trials and then go back to production and modify as necessary in preparation for a commercial run.

Obtaining customer feedback is part of the development process at my company, absolutely necessary before commercialization.

 

[markjwyatt]

I'm sorry sir, but you do not understand what you are talking about. I have 25 years in manufacturing experience. It is literally impossible to have a manufacturing plant without alpha and beta tests. Do you really think that GM or Ford configure an assembly line and then just start pumping out cars for sale? Absolutely not. One day around suburban Detroit will show you all kinds of cars, taped up beyond recognition driving around. These are brand new models, on the road being tested, taped up so us consumers cannot recognize what specific model they are. Even the tiniest widget maker will produce an alpha production run and then send it back to engineering to make sure all the final parameters are meeting expectations and correcting those which inevitably do not. It takes multiple runs to get the process down right. In my own industry, the chemical industry, our products go through alpha and beta tests and we have a very strict policy of NOT charging a penny for them. We find customers who are willing to trial new products, which they get for free in return. Our engineers and chemists learn from these trials and then go back to production and modify as necessary in preparation for a commercial run.

Obtaining customer feedback is part of the development process at my company, absolutely necessary before commercialization.

FILM Ferrania said alpha and beta "products", meaning most manufacturer's do not produce alpha and beta products then sell them commercially. As you imply you give them (likely to trusted customers or internally) to evaluate and give feedback on. This is typical. Again, as FILM Ferrania, said they are anything but a typical commercial company.

 

[RattyMouse]

FILM Ferrania said alpha and beta "products", meaning most manufacturer's do not produce alpha and beta products then sell them commercially. As you imply you give them (likely to trusted customers or internally) to evaluate and give feedback on. This is typical. Again, as FILM Ferrania, said they are anything but a typical commercial company.

Point noted.

 

[tih]

I'm sorry sir, but you do not understand what you are talking about.

With respect, I think you yourself are failing to understand something important, here. Everything you say in the rest of the quoted post is true, of course - but you seem to evaluate the Ferrania team as if they were a commercial venture; a normal company preparing to launch a product line and get into an established market as a serious, new, contender.

This is not at all what they are.

What they are is a group of amateurs (in the literal sense of the word: someone who does what they do because they love to do it) who are willing to pour their time, effort, and money into a damn near impossible project, in the hope that they can resurrect something truly worthwhile. Since they need more money than they can put in themselves, they've found several ways to add to their little pile, among them the Kickstarter, and the sale of a small, initial, batch of what they and we all know is an unfinished (but still pretty damn good) product.

If they'd tried to push P30 Alpha as a "normal" product, that would've been dishonest, and your criticism would've been deserved. However, they've made it very clear that it isn't, including by putting "Alpha" right there in the name of the offering.

Got to keep some perspective.

 

[RattyMouse]

With respect, I think you yourself are failing to understand something important, here. Everything you say in the rest of the quoted post is true, of course - but you seem to evaluate the Ferrania team as if they were a commercial venture; a normal company preparing to launch a product line and get into an established market as a serious, new, contender.

This is not at all what they are.

What they are is a group of amateurs (in the literal sense of the word: someone who does what they do because they love to do it) who are willing to pour their time, effort, and money into a damn near impossible project, in the hope that they can resurrect something truly worthwhile. Since they need more money than they can put in themselves, they've found several ways to add to their little pile, among them the Kickstarter, and the sale of a small, initial, batch of what they and we all know is an unfinished (but still pretty damn good) product.

If they'd tried to push P30 Alpha as a "normal" product, that would've been dishonest, and your criticism would've been deserved. However, they've made it very clear that it isn't, including by putting "Alpha" right there in the name of the offering.

Got to keep some perspective.

As mentioned above, point noted. The text Dave used misled me (my fault) down a path not meant to be taken. I retract my post, but will leave it up here for historical reasons.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Ferrania is another case. They´re not the big boys having millions of funds, income and a lot of staff. They just cannot provide the service like the big boys can, but they also never claimed to be one of the big boys and regarding the Alpha-stage of P30 they told everyone what to expect. I think most of the people buying Alpha-P30 on the one hand just wanted to try something new and on the other hand wanted to help the undertaking of Ferrania in building a small film-fabrication-business.
P30 Alpha wasn´t competitive on price, but as Dave mentioned they had problems with humidity, clean air leading to a lot of waste and their finishing-partner accepted only small quantities of raw film. Now they have the roof fixed, which should rule out problems with humidity, they are working on the problems regarding clean air and they are working on doing finishing of the raw film in house completely. By that they should be able to offer P30, and later color, at a lower price. Not saying it will be much but there should be possible improvement regarding competitivness of price.
In the end nobody is forced to buy their Alpha- and Beta-products, but there also are the Lomography-guys which buy about anything - and Lomo isn´t even trying to be professional, Ferrania is.

We labored for weeks over the price for P30. In the end, we decided to release it at a price that we will be able to sustain for at least a few years without increases - even if our first batches were sold at a loss.

We do sincerely believe that we will eventually achieve a scale that allows us to lower pricing slightly - but our goal for now is simply to set pricing at a level that can remain steady - despite fluctuations in global currencies, import duties and other logistics costs, and of course, cost-factors in the factory. It remains to be seen how that plays out.