Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

trendland · Jan 22, 2018

cmacd123 said:
MY only complaint was that the shipping cost could have shipped many more rolls than the maximum 5 that were allowed. I am hoping that you can see your way clear to allow lots of say 20 rolls in one package to keep the shipping per roll down.

I remember the same. Can't remind the 100% correct pricing. ...?
Nearly 11 bucks shipping? The film from the first batch $12 ...?
Perhaps it was the oposite : 11 bucks the film 12,- shipping cost?
So my calculation ended then : 1 film ~
$ 23,- or 2 films ~ $ 34,- = No film ....
But Ferrania Film did explain this.
So at last everything is going to a good end.

With regards

PS : I would spend $ 50,- to 3 films with different characteristics.
P30 / P80 / P36 Pancro :

A special try out pack to compare.
Therefore I would spend shipping in addition and wouldn't care about max.
$ 15,- for shipping......future will tell.

trendland · Jan 22, 2018

cmacd123 said:
As far a P30 as Movie film. I can see a limited demand in 16mm,

The first and more simple demand to P30 as a movie film should come in 35mm Motion Picture.
(It would be the less expensive way for Film Ferrania)
That's not only my personal speculation.
So pls. have a look on today's Google.
Google has speculations in same direction - see :

with regards

trendland · Jan 22, 2018

cmacd123 said:
As far a P30 as Movie film. I can see a limited demand in 16mm, just because the only other B&W negative films in 16mm are 5222 at 250ASA, UN54 at 100 ASA and N74 at 400ASA and movie cameras tend to have a 1/50th of a second shutter speed so a slower film is an advantage. An ASA 25-50film would be great.

As much as I would love to see Regular 8 in production, I don't believe that anyone can make a positive print from regular 8, while a very few labs still are set up to make prints from 16mm. Both formats can be scanned.

Once the colour REVERSAL is available of course printing stops being an issue. And then I will be waiting with bated breath for the regular 8.

I am sure that 1000% more stock could be sold as 120 than as movie stock at this time.

Super 8 would require a lot of fancy assembly and unless the machinery does not need much work, it would be many times more complex than even 120.

The first and more simple demand to P30
as a movie film should come in 35mm
Motion Picture.
(It would be the less expensive way to Film Ferrania)

That's not only my personal speculation.
So pls. have a look on today's Google.
Google has speculations in same direction - see :

with regards

Nzoomed · Jan 22, 2018

Good to see another update Dave!
I think getting 120 conversion online is naturally a good step for Ferrania, since there was initial demand for 120 P30 and its the most affordable option for Ferrania at the moment.
More film = more sales.

As far as the questions go about backing paper go, im assuming that Ferrania still have some old stock available?

Dave, if you are reading this, are you able to clarify if this is correct? I could see some rolls of backing paper in one of the photos loaded on the conversion equipment, so im assuming there must be some amount of it in your hands?

twelvetone12 · Jan 22, 2018

Thanks Dave for the update! It is always good news to see that good progress is made.

JWMster · Jan 22, 2018

I wasn't into film back when the Kickstarter campaign got going... so I missed that. But I do look forward to trying to squeeze the trigger on some Ferrania P30 some day.
Thanks for the update. Good luck!

FILM Ferrania · Jan 22, 2018

jonasfj said:
I have an idea!

How about financing the the necessary investments by introducing the FerraniaCoin, a b-chain technology cryptocurrency that can be used to buy future products from Film Ferrania including the postcards... ???

FILM Ferrania · Jan 22, 2018

Alessandro Serrao said:
Is it me or the Ferrania shop is still closed despite the hype of reopening it by 15th of January?

Hype would be the wrong word. I think I said something like "shooting for the week of January 15th..."

As you can see on the site now, we have decided we need to stagger the shop openings by region. We were hoping until the last minute that we would have more film finished than we do...

FILM Ferrania · Jan 22, 2018

cmacd123 said:
MY only complaint was that the shipping cost could have shipped many more rolls than the maximum 5 that were allowed. I am hoping that you can see your way clear to allow lots of say 20 rolls in one package to keep the shipping per roll down.

Except that if we lifted all limits, half of the film would go to eBay resellers, and the other half to hoarders who we wouldn't see again for 3 years...

I exaggerate - but you get the picture. We are just not making enough film to NOT have purchase limits - and the last thing we want is for half of our film to end up on eBay at triple the price.

You will see, when the shop launches, that you can put in whatever quantity of film you like. I have no control over configuring a maximum/order quantity using Squarespace's e-commerce tools. I wasted an entire day trying to find a Javascript/DOM solution, but that stuff is just outside my understanding.

So we're stuck with hand-checking every order until we have the time and money to build a better shop...

Which means every single day, yours truly will be forced to cancel orders over 10pcs and write an email to that person explaining what is already written all over the shop.

I'm really not looking forward to that - but we do what we must to move forward. Right?

FILM Ferrania · Jan 22, 2018

I just realized no one posted the link to the latest update.

Here it is: Dead Link Removed

JWMster · Jan 22, 2018

Haven't watched the video yet, but the updates on the site mention 120 but then only reference sale of 35mm. I shoot both, and if 120 will be available sooner.... I'd love to get my hands on it. Assume this will be clear in a couple of days. Thanks!!!

cmacd123 · Jan 22, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
Which means every single day, yours truly will be forced to cancel orders over 10pcs and write an email to that person explaining what is already written all over the shop.

I'm really not looking forward to that - but we do what we must to move forward. Right?

so can we order 10 35 and 10 120

so that the shipping per roll is less than the price of the film? I hate enriching the post office when I really want to have the money I spend go to getting the hurdles to that long awaited roll of 16mmX100Ft of colour reversal is in my Filmo.

fdonadio · Jan 22, 2018

From what I understand, there’s no 120 yet. Ferrania is still setting that finishing line up, so we can have 120 film sometime this year, hopefully Real Soon™.

I would love to be wrong on this, tho.

Europan · Jan 23, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
You should have received a response

It’s the times, we live in an egoistic, unsocial world. I’m not upset by that fact because I’ve learnt about the influence of age-old forces on us. It’s winter of society.

Europan · Jan 23, 2018

trendland said:
You have the wrong president. D. T. would say: I'll make Swizzerland great again.

Dear trendland, we have a president of confederation but she/he isn’t empowered to much. A rather representational job

The POTUS, should he really be willing to do something for your country, could take care of the postal system for a change.

Larry Cloetta · Jan 23, 2018

Dave,
Thanks for the encouraging update. I personally found P30 to be one of the best films I have ever used, in terms of achieving the results I favor, so am looking forward not only to getting some more, but to the long term viability of Film Ferrania as a profitable and sustainable business.
Achieving that goal requires profits. Achieving it as soon as people here are clamoring for requires even bigger profits.The physical and logistical and staffing bottlenecks can all be overcome with decidedly more cash on hand, which I doubt is much of an oversimplification. The return of 120, and the return of color reversal film will substantially follow a timeline which pretty much tracks with the amount of money on hand to hire people and pay for things, it might be fairly safe to say, I am imagining.
With that and with the desire of the photography community for sooner rather than later in mind, would it not be an idea worth considering to raise the per roll price of P30 by $1 when you open the store in two days? I would imagine it would not hurt sales volume at this point. That would seem to make more sense than scraping by forever just to have an introductory price which is "competitive" with other manufacturers, only to have to fold the business later because it took forever to get it fully off the ground. I understand that some people will howl at this idea, but some people always howl. You can always lower prices later, and I think most would understand the rationale going forward.
Running a business on razor thin margins is never a good idea, and if your biggest current worry is meeting demand for product, it makes little sense to do so. Just a suggestion.

trendland · Jan 23, 2018

Europan said:
Dear trendland, we have a president of confederation but she/he isn’t empowered to much. A rather representational job

The POTUS, should he really be willing to do something for your country, could take care of the postal system for a change.

Yeah - the postal system should come next on schedule.First some billions from Apple will come back...!
By the time you mentioned Kodak in concern of K14 lab. I remember well the discussion in regard of the last lab outside the US. - in your country.
And yes - it wasn't indeed the holy true Kodak stated to describe the situation in
( Lausanne? ) ! The investments to new maschines should cost some millions - that was the official version - on the other hand some technicians stated : The whole K14 process was just in time. All systems were in an old but good condition. (caused from excellent maintenance....).
I can't say for sure but often the truth should be located somewhere in the middle. It seams to be true that Kodak (also caused from more and more less demand) - decided against K14 in general. The costs of manufacturing Kodachrome films have been exploded to that time. So the labs were just in the second line. Dwayne's machines were in little better conditions and were also stopped
(without K14 films - no wonder).
If we now compare Ferrania Film (just in bw production) it is a not so easy task at all - I would say.

with regards

trendland · Jan 23, 2018

Larry Cloetta said:
Dave,
Thanks for the encouraging update. I personally found P30 to be one of the best films I have ever used, in terms of achieving the results I favor, so am looking forward not only to getting some more, but to the long term viability of Film Ferrania as a profitable and sustainable business.
Achieving that goal requires profits. Achieving it as soon as people here are clamoring for requires even bigger profits.The physical and logistical and staffing bottlenecks can all be overcome with decidedly more cash on hand, which I doubt is much of an oversimplification. The return of 120, and the return of color reversal film will substantially follow a timeline which pretty much tracks with the amount of money on hand to hire people and pay for things, it might be fairly safe to say, I am imagining.
With that and with the desire of the photography community for sooner rather than later in mind, would it not be an idea worth considering to raise the per roll price of P30 by $1 when you open the store in two days? I would imagine it would not hurt sales volume at this point. That would seem to make more sense than scraping by forever just to have an introductory price which is "competitive" with other manufacturers, only to have to fold the business later because it took forever to get it fully off the ground. I understand that some people will howl at this idea, but some people always howl. You can always lower prices later, and I think most would understand the rationale going forward.
Running a business on razor thin margins is never a good idea, and if your biggest current worry is meeting demand for product, it makes little sense to do so. Just a suggestion.

To rise the price is uneconomic.
Have a look to Fuji.....?
If you want to destruct your own business it is allways a good method with
The big 3 (bad service, no information to customers [anti public relations/advertising], high pricing).
But golden rules still are :
1) excellent service
2) excellent public relations/advertising
3) highest quality/less pricing

Point 2 is best done from Film Ferrania
Point 3 should only be realistic from industrial mass production.
Point 1 is a question of man power and
financial resources to Film Ferrania.

But higher pricing will not help in any way.
P30 is highly priced ....we respect this.
Today the central point should be
P R O D U C T I O N ....!!!!
As I understand Film Ferrania correct they are wishing to have higher quantities of the new film - but this is allways in concern of first : having costs.
Just have a look on PE's expertise :
$ 50.000,- / $ 100.000,- a single production run in bw.
The more films you may produce the less cost per single roll.The less pricing and better quality is possible.
So you might have in optimistic advance :
"a self reinforcing developement" in business.
The general question wich is remaining is the question of the right time.
Look at Kodak - If they would have been able to introduce Super8 films with new cameras 8 month ago - they might have been more sucsessfull than today.
They just have missed the highest wave of hype - now it seams to be too late.

with regards

JWMster · Jan 23, 2018

So does anyone actually know what the price per roll is going to be? I'm a wait-and-see guy. I know Rollei film prices seem high and Adox films seem scarce as hens teeth, but Kodak and Ilford pretty decent.

trendland · Jan 23, 2018

JWMster said:
So does anyone actually know what the price per roll is going to be? I'm a wait-and-see guy. I know Rollei film prices seem high and Adox films seem scarce as hens teeth, but Kodak and Ilford pretty decent.

One retailer listed the single roll 135-36
nearly 9,50 bucks - but stated to same time : sold out...

with regards

Larry Cloetta · Jan 23, 2018

trendland said:
To rise the price is uneconomic.

It wasn't uneconomic when Steve Jobs did it, it's obviously not inherently uneconomic. Leica made a handsome profit last year, and Nikon lost money, so it's not that simple, the economics of creating a successful business, that low price is a necessity. It has never been a necessity, in and of itself.

At any rate, the suggestion was for short term capital raising, not long term pricing, as I tried to make clear. If they raised the per roll price by a dollar, I would guess they would still sell it out in two weeks, in which case it would have been a good idea.
There are millions of people who won't buy an Apple computer because it is "too expensive" which hasn't stopped Apple from being one of the world's most profitable companies. Whether it is "worth it" or not to some people is completely beside the point. The point is to create a company which is financially successful enough to move forward in bigger steps. From that standpoint, "charging what the market will bear", which is what Leica does, makes perfect sense.
I'm not advocating thar Film Ferrania mimic Leica, only that they obviously need more operating capital short term, and this would be one way to get it. All the anxious cries of "when will the store open", and other signs, all point to the fact of high demand for the film, a demand which is unlikely to disappear, short term, with a small price increase, as long as everyone knew up front the reason behind it.

Nzoomed · Jan 23, 2018

Larry Cloetta said:
Dave,
Thanks for the encouraging update. I personally found P30 to be one of the best films I have ever used, in terms of achieving the results I favor, so am looking forward not only to getting some more, but to the long term viability of Film Ferrania as a profitable and sustainable business.
Achieving that goal requires profits. Achieving it as soon as people here are clamoring for requires even bigger profits.The physical and logistical and staffing bottlenecks can all be overcome with decidedly more cash on hand, which I doubt is much of an oversimplification. The return of 120, and the return of color reversal film will substantially follow a timeline which pretty much tracks with the amount of money on hand to hire people and pay for things, it might be fairly safe to say, I am imagining.
With that and with the desire of the photography community for sooner rather than later in mind, would it not be an idea worth considering to raise the per roll price of P30 by $1 when you open the store in two days? I would imagine it would not hurt sales volume at this point. That would seem to make more sense than scraping by forever just to have an introductory price which is "competitive" with other manufacturers, only to have to fold the business later because it took forever to get it fully off the ground. I understand that some people will howl at this idea, but some people always howl. You can always lower prices later, and I think most would understand the rationale going forward.
Running a business on razor thin margins is never a good idea, and if your biggest current worry is meeting demand for product, it makes little sense to do so. Just a suggestion.

I think its good to hear that people like you are enjoying P30, I know many others love the results of this film, so I think it is a good option for those shooting B&W films.
I feel there is a market for P30 and is a good competitor to Ilford films.
Demand is high, and Ferrania simply dont have the resources to get 35mm conversion up and running, good news is that they can get 120 in production soon, which will mean more film sales.

I know Ferrania must be running on a thin margin, but the fact they have demand is good, because with no demand for a product they have no business.
It wont be easy, but I feel that Ferrania will be able to increase sales this year and should get the funds to get the 35mm conversion line going which will put a huge amount of P30 onto the market.
Then bring on the colour film!

trendland · Jan 24, 2018

Larry Cloetta , well - I repect your little different oppinium.
We both could be lucky if we would be not in charge of an own company.
Steve Jobs visions are not to tranform to other examples 100%.
But as I mentioned before - task is a creation of demand : Tablet pc's !
Jobs stated to the remarkable success
of the first Ipad : " A machine no one owned before - no one has a need before but a must have to all now"

with regards

FILM Ferrania · Jan 24, 2018

fdonadio said:
From what I understand, there’s no 120 yet. Ferrania is still setting that finishing line up, so we can have 120 film sometime this year, hopefully Real Soon™.

I would love to be wrong on this, tho.

You guys... I know our updates are long, but it is my hope that at least APUG folks will read the whole thing.

In the update, we said the plan is to have the 120 converting line in operation by April. The work has already begun.

FILM Ferrania · Jan 24, 2018

cmacd123 said:
so can we order 10 35 and 10 120 so that the shipping per roll is less than the price of the film? I hate enriching the post office when I really want to have the money I spend go to getting the hurdles to that long awaited roll of 16mmX100Ft of colour reversal is in my Filmo.

No 120 of course. But 10 rolls of 35mm, yes. And we have used data from our pre-sale to redo the shipping costs more accurately. For most people in the continental US, the shipping will be less for sure.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency