Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[cmacd123]

That probably a nod at the heritage. If I remember correctly ASA and ISO is more or less the same (replaced two national standards with a third international?). EI is close enough for amateurs.

My guess is that back in 1958 when P30 was first made, it WAS rated at 80ASA.

As far as ISO speed, British Standards and JIS both used a method that gave speeds that corresponded to ASA, DIN in Germany used a different system. The industry came together and said that if you put BOTH sytems on the package like 400/27Degrees then everyone can get along. otherwise we would have film boxes marked ASA/BS/JIS

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I'm a little bit confused...
In the P30 part of the website, and in the "Best Practices" dokument it says that you Really Really should shoot at 80ASA. Somewhere in this discussion it says that P30 is made for D96 (cinema film) and d76 is the closest commercial match. It also says somewhere that continuous agitation is a good idea.

On the other hand. In the "Best Practices" document is only gives a time for D96 and D76 at 50 ASA, continuous agitation Also the rest of the D76 timess is for 'Normal' agitation.

Is this only because of that the times is what is reported back instead of what is tested at Film Ferrania?

PS: When trying developing Orwo N54 that also is a cinema film I suddenly got a whole new grayscale. It really seems that cinema film like D96/D76 and continuous agitation!

In the case of D96, the chart is just wrong at the moment and I never noticed it in all this time...

We don't have a 50 ISO timing for D96. It's 80 ISO at 8 min.

Fortunately, this is fixed now in the next version of the Best Practices. I am compiling the PDF and a companion blog post to publish (hopefully) later this week.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

At $8.50 per roll I won't be buying any.

This is not so say that others should not buy at that price, but for me it is not a price I could justify, given my personal financial situation. If my income were higher I might consider buying a few rolls to try out, but realistically speaking I would not pay that price when I can buy Kodak or Ilford for less, or Foma or Arista Edu Ultra or Kentmere for a lot less money.

If this is the case, I'm at least glad you're following the thread.

It's very unlikely that we will ever be in a position to mass produce films at the volume necessary to compete strictly on price.

 

[JWMster]

BTW: Congratulations on re-opening. Major milestone for Ferrania... and all of us. Very easy for us to overlook the significance of this... and quickly beef about how long it's been, how far behind schedule, etc, when in fact resurrection is a pretty doggone rare thing. Good work!

I should think it would be equally good news for film shooters and even every producer if Kodak could get Ektachrome to market, but it may (not so) surprisingly take them equally as long. But these days, I should think EVERY company that is able to put film into production helps to support (rebuild) the infrastructure, distribution and ultimately the demand and sustainability of the film community. Bravo for Ferrania for overcoming the odds!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

One question is why are they using the ASA standard which hasn't been used in 30 years. Did they really test it or is it just a retro marketing shtick. Or maybe ASA stands for Anecdotal Standards Association. I'm doubting densitometry was involved.

We call it ASA because Marco says we call it ASA. Until Marco says differently, we will call it ASA.

My guess is that back in 1958 when P30 was first made, it WAS rated at 80ASA.

It is certainly fortunate that Marco's wishes and the original product's rated speed were the same.

That probably a nod at the heritage. If I remember correctly ASA and ISO is more or less the same (replaced two national standards with a third international?). EI is close enough for amateurs./Johan

I think most people consider ISO and ASA to be equivalent. I know for sure that Marco does not, but he appreciates the serendipity with the original product's rated speed.

 

[MattKing]

We call it ASA because Marco says we call it ASA. Until Marco says differently, we will call it ASA.

So it maybe should be "MSA" (for Marco Standards Association)

 

[Ces1um]

8.50 US (about 10.50 cdn) is less than what I pay for Ilford film now. This doesn't factor in the cost of shipping though which added about a dollar per roll

BTW: Congratulations on re-opening. Major milestone for Ferrania... and all of us. Very easy for us to overlook the significance of this... and quickly beef about how long it's been, how far behind schedule, etc, when in fact resurrection is a pretty doggone rare thing. Good work!

I should think it would be equally good news for film shooters and even every producer if Kodak could get Ektachrome to market, but it may (not so) surprisingly take them equally as long. But these days, I should think EVERY company that is able to put film into production helps to support (rebuild) the infrastructure, distribution and ultimately the demand and sustainability of the film community. Bravo for Ferrania for overcoming the odds!

Very well said. +1

 

[mitorn]

ISO is just the combination of the German DIN and the American ASA norm.
So instead of ASA 80 and DIN 20° (logarithmic scale) one writes ISO 80/20°, it is also legit to write only ISO 80 or ISO 20°.

-martin-

 

[Harry Callahan]

.....
PS: When trying developing Orwo N54 that also is a cinema film I suddenly got a whole new grayscale. It really seems that cinema film like D96/D76 and continuous agitation!

Cinema film usually is developed in machines which continuously transport the film and there are jets or other stuff, which moves the developer around all the time. Therefore cinemafilms should be developed with continuous agitation. This also may/should aplly to Orwo UN54, but this material should be very different from P30, as UN54 is a modern emulsion having a lot of "tricks" which a traditional emulsion like P30 doesn´t have. Therefore i don´t know if the new grayscale is due to continuous agitation.
Anyway P30 should benefit from cont. agit. .

 

[trendland]

At $8.50 per roll I won't be buying any.

This is not so say that others should not buy at that price, but for me it is not a price I could justify, given my personal financial situation. If my income were higher I might consider buying a few rolls to try out, but realistically speaking I would not pay that price when I can buy Kodak or Ilford for less, or Foma or Arista Edu Ultra or Kentmere for a lot less money.

alanrockwood first let me say I noticed your page/blog on the web a couple of month ago. I didn't realize to that time that you are also on Apug/Photrio - later I realized and wanted something to say about.
This should be the right moment now :
Your side from the web is just EXCELLENT!
From that your financial situation can't be soo worst - Am I right or it am I right .
But of cause such individual issues are realy relative.
: If my finacially situation would be as I would have planned some years ago - we perhaps should come together and I would also say : " No way I will not spend that money to buy a simple P30 from Film Ferrania"
But then I would definitive buy Film Ferrania ........in total .
The pricing I refered is in regard of the upcoming future.
Perhaps you remember Super8 pricing from far behind - later it increases soo much.
The same issue is knoking on our door
today - totaly increasement of all pricing
around conventional photography (I realy don't like the term "analogue photography".)
And then bw film is also priced much higher. Wy we remember such little price increasement with bw (special with bw films) in comparison to E6/c41 films ?
I may tell you - because of AGFA (Leverkusen) company bankrupt.
Looking on their best selling fulms :
APX 100/400 !
As you might know the original Agfa APX
400 was sold out in relative short time
(after 1 year and some month) but the
ISO 100 film was sold for nearly 8 years.
All the statements of producing this emulsion from Agfa belgium wasn't correct. Because we must speak about
"Assembling".
So this enormous high amounds of masterrolls from old Agfa films forced other manufacturers to increase pricing in bw not so much.The next issue is bw
paper. Rollei labled new series from AGFA
papers. Then just look on several areal films from Agfa with different new films.
Meanwhile Rollei itself increased pricing of their whole film portfolio very much.
This indicates : Old Agfa stuff gets of very
soon.
So we might can't buy bw films of any manufacturers much lower than USD 8,-
(A single 135-36) in the near future ?
I say : yes. ..definitivly YES .
The only question is : what is nearest future concrete?
I can't say ? Perhaps in some month from now ? 3/4 year from now ?
We all will recognize pricing to a single
bw film > USD 8,50.
THINK ABOUT

with regards

 

[Photo Engineer]

Cinema film usually is developed in machines which continuously transport the film and there are jets or other stuff, which moves the developer around all the time. Therefore cinemafilms should be developed with continuous agitation. This also may/should aplly to Orwo UN54, but this material should be very different from P30, as UN54 is a modern emulsion having a lot of "tricks" which a traditional emulsion like P30 doesn´t have. Therefore i don´t know if the new grayscale is due to continuous agitation.
Anyway P30 should benefit from cont. agit. .

Harry, how do you know about these "tricks"?

PE

 

[baachitraka]

Cinema film usually is developed in machines which continuously transport the film and there are jets or other stuff, which moves the developer around all the time. Therefore cinemafilms should be developed with continuous agitation. This also may/should aplly to Orwo UN54, but this material should be very different from P30, as UN54 is a modern emulsion having a lot of "tricks" which a traditional emulsion like P30 doesn´t have. Therefore i don´t know if the new grayscale is due to continuous agitation.
Anyway P30 should benefit from cont. agit. .

...while reading it was like how my grandfather told stories when I was young.

 

[trendland]

...while reading it was like how my grandfather told stories when I was young.

...an TODAY you are telling such stories
hmm. ..?

with regards

PS : Agitation within a machine developement is a normal think. For the rest of Harry Calahan's explanation we should able to wait until he will cover it out more precisely?

 

[MattKing]

For those who wait with bated breath for colour Ferrania film, you will enjoy this - seen today at an "antiques mall" in Fort Langley, BC Canada.
It is about a meter in length.
For $275.00 CDN (plus taxes??) it can be yours.
(apologies for the crummy cel phone photo)

 

[Harry Callahan]

Harry, how do you know about these "tricks"?

PE

An expert said in another forum that UN54 is a modern emulsion having a lot of improvements traditional emulsions don´t have. I´m not an expert, but from pictures i see UN54 does seem to have full red-sensitivity, maybe some modern grain like T-grain or something similar; somewhere it also was mentioned that UN54 has a special hardened gelatin-layer, resulting in even smaller risk of the emlusion peeling off during developement and maybe fewer friction when running through movie-cameras especially. And as most modern films are an offshoot of the once revolutionary "Dünnschicht-Film" UN54 probably also is, while P30 probably isn´t which also would explain the high silver-content of P30.

...while reading it was like how my grandfather told stories when I was young.

I´m sorry if i talked you to sleep... on the other hand i wasn´t adressing you either.

...
PS : Agitation within a machine developement is a normal think. For the rest of Harry Calahan's explanation we should able to wait until he will cover it out more precisely?

I just wanted to point out that cinemafilm wasn´t intended for stand- or semi-stand-developement. Off course if you give a 135-cartridge to a lab they will process it in a machine, giving the film continous agitation, but a lot of foto-films also can be developed with non-continuous agitation, because manufacturers designed them like that - as far as i know - so self-developers can use technices like semi-stand etc. , but P30 being a "true" cinemafilm, only intended for machine-developement, should do best in continuous agitation.
And as UN54 is a modern emulsion, probably having another grain-structure, i don´t know whether it also does benefit from continous agitation, as UN54 should differ quite a lot from P30 - and i also don´t know whether UN54 was intended as a cinema-film at all, because Filmotec does produce surveilance-films primarily, which usually are loaded into photo-cameras - trying to get a snapshot of you when you´re driving too fast - but not into movie-film-cameras necessarily. Therefore UN54 might also be intended for semi-stand etc., while P30 wasn´t/isn´t. At least not as much as UN54 *might* be.

 

[baachitraka]

I´m sorry if i talked you to sleep... on the other hand i wasn´t adressing you either.

Sir, I don't mean to dis-respect your comment. The word 'trick' is very nostalgic when I connect it to my grandfather. (He was serving as a fireman under British rule)

 

[trendland]

An expert said in another forum that UN54 is a modern emulsion having a lot of improvements traditional emulsions don´t have. I´m not an expert, but from pictures i see UN54 does seem to have full red-sensitivity, maybe some modern grain like T-grain or something similar; somewhere it also was mentioned that UN54 has a special hardened gelatin-layer, resulting in even smaller risk of the emlusion peeling off during developement and maybe fewer friction when running through movie-cameras especially. And as most modern films are an offshoot of the once revolutionary "Dünnschicht-Film" UN54 probably also is, while P30 probably isn´t which also would explain the high silver-content of P30.



I´m sorry if i talked you to sleep... on the other hand i wasn´t adressing you either.



I just wanted to point out that cinemafilm wasn´t intended for stand- or semi-stand-developement. Off course if you give a 135-cartridge to a lab they will process it in a machine, giving the film continous agitation, but a lot of foto-films also can be developed with non-continuous agitation, because manufacturers designed them like that - as far as i know - so self-developers can use technices like semi-stand etc. , but P30 being a "true" cinemafilm, only intended for machine-developement, should do best in continuous agitation.
And as UN54 is a modern emulsion, probably having another grain-structure, i don´t know whether it also does benefit from continous agitation, as UN54 should differ quite a lot from P30 - and i also don´t know whether UN54 was intended as a cinema-film at all, because Filmotec does produce surveilance-films primarily, which usually are loaded into photo-cameras - trying to get a snapshot of you when you´re driving too fast - but not into movie-film-cameras necessarily. Therefore UN54 might also be intended for semi-stand etc., while P30 wasn´t/isn´t. At least not as much as UN54 *might* be.

Thank you for comming more precisely to your points Harry.
I might be also No real expert - so as you.
But I am not sure if stand development is an issue, bw films are prepared for from design.
So what is design of a film emulsion in general.
It is a find out phase - a try with different
parameters to reach a real imperfect characteristic of a product - a bw. film !
As good as it could be - with relative high costs.
The issues should be a lot of different technical parameters (speed, grain structure,tonal range capacity,sensivity to specific spectrum of lights, thickness of layers and film, stability of layers a.s.o.

But to me characteristics in regard of stand development belongs not to the design parameters.
It should be the oposite : Some tryed stand development with different films and find out to some films it works fine and with other films it works not so good.
But stand development in general should have an effect to every bw emulsion.
The question is more : Do you like it with a special film.

with regards

PS : And of cause it is strongly dependable from developer type.
By the time Do you know a mixing solution 1:25 / 1:50 with Kodak D76 ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Full red sensitivity and good hardness were known for over 60 years. The trick was to prevent continuing hardness that ended up in curl and cracking. The red sensitivity extended back just as far. No tricks here. I find no references to Dunnschicht-Film.

PE

 

[trendland]

Full red sensitivity and good hardness were known for over 60 years. The trick was to prevent continuing hardness that ended up in curl and cracking. The red sensitivity extended back just as far. No tricks here. I find no references to Dunnschicht-Film.

PE

.... I did it ( in practice ) with HP5 135-72

with regards

PS : Just a little joke PE I understand what you refered in regard of layer thickness of cause

 

[Europan]

Mitteilungen aus den Forschungslaboratorien der Agfa-Gevaert-Ag., Leverkusen und München, Springer 1964

 

[trendland]

Mitteilungen aus den Forschungslaboratorien der Agfa-Gevaert-Ag., Leverkusen und München, Springer 1964

View attachment 194546

Aha I see European - so the courve indicates a better resolution in regard ol LP/mm or Lines per mm - I am just gues the contrast was 1/1000 as we know from camparison of emulsion today.
So we indeed talk about the thickness of layers.
I remember a statement to Kodachrome layers. Because of different design the layers from Kodachrome films was with less thickness of layers of E6 films (as E6 from the same period ) this should have been one reason of Ektachromes Sharpness,
In adition to his real less speed. ( KDK25/64 ).

with regards

PS : May be todays emulsion layers all have a simular thickness caused from modern production methods with extreme small tolerances.
So the mentioned issue stand for the past ?- I could imagine - but I can´t say for sure.

 

[trendland]

....MÜF .... so better forget what I have sayd about contrast 1/1000

Nobody is perfect.....

with regards

 

[baachitraka]

Mitteilungen aus den Forschungslaboratorien der Agfa-Gevaert-Ag., Leverkusen und München, Springer 1964

View attachment 194546

1) Diffraction limit? ;-)
2) Its good to have a different films with different characteristics...

 

[Europan]

1964 was a slaughter year, Gevaert lost its independence. Other film and paper makers got bought. The silver war

Thin layers are available with microfilms.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Sir, I don't mean to dis-respect your comment. The word 'trick' is very nostalgic when I connect it to my grandfather. (He was serving as a fireman under British rule)

Ok.
Don´t get me wrong but i never considered "trick" to be a nostalgic/oldfashioned word. Is there a new word for "trick" around today? Just asking.

Full red sensitivity and good hardness were known for over 60 years. The trick was to prevent continuing hardness that ended up in curl and cracking. The red sensitivity extended back just as far. No tricks here. I find no references to Dunnschicht-Film.

PE

I didn´t intend to start a technical discussion about what is new or what is a trick and what isn´t, i just wanted to point out to jogr that:
a) There are films which were intended for continuous agitation only, which applies to P30
b) that UN54 should differ a lot from P30 so it should be hard to conclude that every cinemafilm does benefit from D96/D76 and cont. agi.
c) its even possible that UN54 wasn´t intended as a cinemafilm at all

But as were allready discussing, P30 lacks full red sensitivity and has old-style-grain and probably old-style-layer-thickness. Whether the gelatin is as special hardened as it is with UN54 probably is questionable. If one now does call this tricks or different shouldn´t matter a lot, fact is that UN54 differs a lot from P30 - which is what i wanted to make clear.
Dünnschicht-Film (with an -Ü- not an -U-) was revolutionary in so far that the layer(s) of gelatin holding the silver were made thinner. I think this invention was made in the 50s or even 40s by a german manufacturer, maybe Adox, maybe Efke, i don´t know for sure.
One of the effects were more visible grain, but also more sharpness, i can´t explain why, but after this invention was made a lot of emulsions were desinged in that way, which should be one thing representing a new-style-emulsion. Apart from that fewer silver is needed and by that the film can be produced more economical.
This indicates that P30 still is old-style as it uses a lot of silver compared to other emulsions, which also might explain the rather high price of P30.

Thank you for comming more precisely to your points Harry.
I might be also No real expert - so as you.
But I am not sure if stand development is an issue, bw films are prepared for from design.
So what is design of a film emulsion in general.
It is a find out phase - a try with different
....

I also am not sure but if the layer(s) of gelatin holding the silver are rather thick, its harder for the developer to get deep into the layer(s) and do its job. This could be the reason why P30 does benefit from cont. agit. because its needed to get the developer deep into the layer(s). On a "modern" film with thinner layer(s) there might be not as much agitation needed - which by the way also could explain the pre-soak vs. no-pre-soak-debate, as a presoak might help a thick layer to swell and by that being able to take up the developer better than without pre-soak.
Now if its like that this could explain why the "myth" of pre-soak is still around, though a lot of people have come to the conclusion that pre-soak has no effect on developement. If its like i assume, pre-soak was helping old-style-emlusions but isn´t helping on new-style-emulsions - and this could be why there is the idea of pre-soak at all, but a lot of users not experiencing a difference with pre-soak, because they use modern films.

And by that, way of developement needed very well could be defined by design of the emulsion.

About Kodachrome: Kodachrome had a hell of layers, i also don´t know exactly, but it was like 30 or 40 different layers - and just because of that they had to make the layers very thin as the film would have become way too thick otherwise. An E6-film does around 16 layers i think.