Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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Photo Engineer

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Charles, you are correct regarding the "official" process. I'm just commenting on the less optimum processes and these indeed might be possible for a new film, if it is designed the right way. Formalin is used in the E6 process, but is introduced in a different way than in the final bath.

PE
 

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There are many many possibilities for variation. Too many to mention here in a post without going in to some pretty involved chemistry.

PE
 

Nzoomed

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Photo Engineer said:
There are many many possibilities for variation. Too many to mention here in a post without going in to some pretty involved chemistry.

PE
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Well since they already are working with a formula that worked with current E6 chemistry, this should not be an issue, unless there are some differences with the new sensitizers and dye couplers, etc.
 

cmacd123

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Photo Engineer said:
Formalin is used in the E6 process, but is introduced in a different way than in the final bath.
PE
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I seem to recall that you had your fingers in the "stealth formalin" in the latest official E6 process.

Any of the "unofficial" processes would have been designed to work with the Kodak, Fuji (and long enough ago Agfa, Konica and Ferrania ) films of the day. I would guess when slides were a big deal, packages of unicolor and the like after-market kits may have found their way by mysterious means to somewhere in Rochester, for patent analysis if nothing else. with a Kodakian making calls to the makers if they blew it too bad. the designers of the Aftermarket products may very well have paid ofr technology to be sure they were compatible.

Ferrania is going to have to test their Film with "the official" process first. (possibly the Fuji-Hunt version) and may run at least some tests with the major after market kits that they find.

back in the 80s I did play with some very unofficial formulas. for C-41 and ECN2. I have recently scanned some of my negatives from that period and have been pleased that there is still come colour present. even with the ECN2 stock developed with CD-4 measure by the teaspoon. My colour vison is bad enough that I am probably shielded from how bad the results actually are, which is the reason I gave up printing colour back when all the paper was process EP-2.
 

Diapositivo

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For what I remember, formalin was eliminated from the official E6 treatment for concerns regarding the fumes in complex "industrial" developing environments.
I considered matter-of-fact that the sensible home developer would, in any case, use a final bath with formalin, because it doesn't hurt the process. Is that right?
The final bath sold until a few years ago with the E6 by Ornano (not any more in production) used formalin in the final bath.
 

Anon Ymous

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It's not totally eliminated, it just changed form and is not used at the final rinse. Nowadays, the pre-bleach bath contains a formaldehyde-bisulfite adduct that takes care of dye stabilisation. The same bath also contains a bleach accelerator. The final rinse contains some fungicide and a wetting agent.

The home user can use a formaldehyde based final rinse and be done with it. If a commercial final rinse solution can be obtained, then one can make the aforementioned adduct by mixing the right amount of formaldehyde and sodium metabisulfite.
 

Prest_400

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Something partly OT, or not, considering it was in one of the many discussion branches and that Dave commented it.

Went on a short trip and Genova coming from the Piemonte. The train wound around the Scrivia valley which seemed quite rural and may be comparable to the area of Ferrania and Cairo Montenotte. I wonder if sometime in a quieter future the LRF could be visited. Liguria seems a mighty fine region, having some great landscape, towns and a small film factory.
Of course anyone could drop by the area and ring the LRF's bell, but with quite a busy project I doubt the team has time to mess around with visitors!
 

Don Harpold

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Hello
I shot another roll in my Canon P, I shot a 40iso, my developing was a 3 min prewash in distilled water and 15 mins in Pyrocat HD 1-1-100 continuos agitation first min and then 10 sec every min thereafter, 1 min stop in plain water and 7 min fix with TF4 and then 10 min flush and 1 min photoflo

Here are a couple of shots, I have yet to finish scanning but will post to Flickr when done and provide link.

So far looks good for the first effort, I will give it another try in a few weeks

Thanks
Don

 

FILM Ferrania

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These look good, Don! A similar range of tones we see in our internal D-76/D-96 testing.
 

twelvetone12

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So I have to mix d96 eh?
I have one question: are there any differences intra-batch? At 80 iso I basically got a transparent negative, but many examples online are very nice at 80. Do you have any sensitometric tests to share? Also, when can I buy more? ok that's three questions
 

wlodekmj

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Don Harpold said:
Thank You Dave

I have just started using the Pyro and like it.
Some of the shots are still a little under but that might be my metering
Click to expand...

Thank you too. I want to ask the same question - is there significant variation between batches? Lots of people have posted excellent results with the film used at ISO80, but like some others I get thin shadows. It is not the developer - I have tried D76 and Tmax. It is not the camera - I have tried more than one. I find that shooting at ISO40 and extending the development time give me much better results. Or does the sensitivity decrease the further one is from Italy? Maybe ISO80 in Italy, 40 in parts of Europe that are not in the EU (or apparently want to leave) and 20 outside Europe?
 

FILM Ferrania

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There is no significant difference between batches. Our head of product, Luisa Tavella tests the head and tail sections of every miniJumbo we coat to insure consistency as we have continued to "dial-in" the coating process. We have even replaced some parts on the machine that were found to be the cause for much of the waste we have experienced so far. But no film has been sent for converting that hasn't passed Luisa's tests.

If the primary issue was the film itself, we would see a much greater variance in results since each and every miniJumbo we have coated could rightly be considered a "batch" separate from all others.

Instead, what we see is that, like any cinema product, correct exposure and processing are both extremely critical to getting the best possible results from P30. We have been collecting data from all of the submissions and will be updating the Best Practices document accordingly.

To answer your other questions:

Sensitometry is part of Luisa's battery of tests but these are not yet in a form that can be released. When we are able, a sensitometric chart will be added to the Best Practices - but to be perfectly honest, this is not necessary or even relevant to the vast majority of people who have purchased P30 so far, or will purchase it in the future.

Regarding the next round of film for sale, we obviously cannot repeat the up-to-4-month wait we had for the pre-sale - and we're working on several different solutions in parallel. Once we have at least one of these solutions in place, we'll announce a window for re-opening sales.
 

twelvetone12

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Thanks Dave for the reply!
But I'm still a bit baffled, at 80 iso I always got thin negatives not matter what, and it always seems a bit more than a stop under. I made some small homemade tests, when I'm home I will take a photo of the negs.
 

wlodekmj

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My thanks as well, Dave, for your serious reply to my somewhat tongue-in-cheek question.
This means that the problem lies in variations in processing, not variations in film batches.
Which is very helpful, since it means that a successful exposure/processing combination anyone works out using the initial batches should work for them on future batches once full production is under way and we can get more P30.
Looking forward to that!
 
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