Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).
And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.
Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all
Bill Gates are you listening???We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet - unless, as I've said before, some angel investor decides that apps are boring and turns their attention to manufacturing real stuff. That would speed things up a good bit, but we're not relying on it in any way. We are forging ahead, despite whatever criticism we receive, to stay alive and grow and eventually reach the point of self-sufficiency.
Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...And if you received a roll that was scratched before it was sent to you, you'd be the first, but it would certainly qualify for a replacement.
I haven't found anything connected to this on your latest website post. Did you get any further info on this? I wanted to understand what less capable actually means.
Don't worry, thanks for replying now.Yes, sorry - I could not reply to anything for several days. See my other reply to this request.
Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...
We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet
In one of the films they installed a new casting wheel. It was humongus! Around 10m high.
Is Ferranias base casting equipment on that scale
I don't want to bash Ferrania or sound negative or anything, but I would just like to have a clear view of what is going on, and I really don't want to sound harsh.
When I participated to the kickstarter I knew well it was to purchase the machinery, but the same campaign made it also sound that the color film was kind "around the corner" - you could make a batch in 2015 and after restructuring it would be possible to go on production in a somewhat timely fashion. It turns out it is not the case - and please don't get me wrong, this is not a critique, complex industrial processes are complex - and probably it will not be ready anytime soon. But I wish the kickstarter made that clearer - if the 2015 window closes, that's it: color film is going to be a long-term project, with years on the making. The fact that much of the communication stressed that Ferrania had no interest in BW film somewhat reinforced the idea that color would be ready more or less soon.
Please know that I'm more than happy that you achieved P30 right now (and I'm happy to have ordered it), but I think you owe us backers at least the complete explanation - I feel the 2015 deadline was much more precarious than depicted, and the road to color material was much much more steep than described.
I have no problem i waiting knowing that the investment on kicstarter is being put to a good fruit, even if it will be more years till color film, if this is what it takes to create for you a sustainable business. But I feel this stance should be completely cleared from your part.
Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...
Another technical question relating to the Kodak films.
In one of the films they installed a new casting wheel. It was humongus! Around 10m high.
Is Ferranias base casting equipment on that scale and can you shoehorne it in the LRF building, or is the plan to build a new annex when you have to move it from where it is now.
/Johan
I thought it was mentioned somewhere that the trend in Europe is to use Base making machines with a seamless belt (which must be an interesting device to fabricate in itself.) since the belt can flex, it allows for a lower profile machine. Environmental rules probably require the entire process be enclosed to recover 100% of the solvents used to dissolve the CTA plastic, and My guess is that the machine may have to be modified before it can be placed back in service.
The was a post that the base machine they have purchased was not easily movable and so they are keeping it in the building where it was originally installed, and the landlord has agreed to keep at least that part of the building intact.
This does raise an issue going forward, as Ilford and Kodak are planning to depend on (what seems to be a single) German supplier, which I suspect (without proof) also supplies Foma. if that is the case we are looking at one point of failure in the Acetate base film supply chain.
It is also a sticky problem as in "Making Kodak Film" there is the comment that the base casting process is inherently a continuous process, (which resulted in Kodak having a many year supply before they shut their plant down.) so this is not something that can be started up to make a few jumbo rolls and mothballed. Having the machine in existence does provide the posibility that it could be a source of supply not just for ferrania but the rest of the industry, so having it is a plus for ongoing viability of analogue film, even if they decide to place their orders for the moment (after they clear teh stock they have) with the same source as Ilford uses.
(and recall that Foma had a period where they were unable to acquire the CLEAR base they needed for R-100, which of course is also needed for colour E-6 Film. B&W is normally on a grey base (as is P-30) and C-41 film as well as Colour Movie negative can also be made on the grey base. so E-6 requires a Niche Product film base.)
There is a really big difference between Brands and Manufacturers.
The only truly self-contained, end-to-end manufacturer in the world right now is Fuji. Kodak and Ilford are close, but neither manufactures their own base so that technically rules them out.
All the rest (including FILM Ferrania at this point in time) rely on products or services from each other to produce their branded products.
And several of the brands you mentioned just buy fully finished products from someone else and put their brand on the box.
We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet - unless, as I've said before, some angel investor decides that apps are boring and turns their attention to manufacturing real stuff. That would speed things up a good bit, but we're not relying on it in any way. We are forging ahead, despite whatever criticism we receive, to stay alive and grow and eventually reach the point of self-sufficiency.
Eastman Chemical is a leader in polyester plastic resins. I don't know if ESTAR bases are extruded or cast? I would think extrusion would be feasible. .
I know most of the brands I listed were re-brands or sub-brands. I didn't realize however that Fuji was the only self-contained manufacturer (I thought Harman produced base as well). Interesting factoid.
Biaxial extrusion is very common in production of packaging films. It's not rocket science. PET is one of the most common films made. I don't know where everyone gets the base.If you read "Making Kodak Film" their is almost a separate chapter on making polyester (ESTAR, Conar, etc) base. the machinery is quite complex as the base is extruded, and then must be stretched in both directions to get the needed properties. Clips are automatically installed every few centimetres and then automatically removed and returned to the attaching stations.
Poly base is used for many applications, but not for Movie camera film, and is problematic for 35mm still film.
poly can only be spliced with tape splices or an ultrasonic splicer, so it is dificult to edit movies shot on Poly. there is also a risk of breaking the camera if you were to loose the loops.
for 35mm stills, Poly is very prone to "light pipeing" where a small amount of light striking the leader can fog the film in the cassette. This is why the ADOX.DE films on Poly base explain the need to only load in subdued light.
the film coating base layers are also different for Poly.
some films like Movie Projection prints do use poly because fo it's extra strength. Microfilm uses it for extra storage stability, AERO film uses it because it is more stable in size.
most of the markets Ferrania is aiming for probably would perfer Acetate.
Thanks Dave for taking all the time to reply to our ramblingsWith all of this said, we are right now working on our next Kickstarter-specific update that hopefully (if people read it) will address much of the above and more.
Not stirring the pot at all!!
Defects are of a very specific type and well-known by our team on sight. Our ramp-up was very slow in April and May because every defect was investigated and fixed before a new coating run.
But of course, although very rare so far, defects can still happen.
I'm more than happy to replace defective film now that pre-orders have shipped and I have a small bit of extra stock. But we have to see a few example frames first to know if the film went out defective, or if something else happened. There is a submission form on the P30 page on our site, or you can just email scans to help@filmferrania.it.
The two plants were indeed separate as the two productions have nothing in common. Too bad one was imploded.If you read "Making Kodak Film" their is almost a separate chapter on making polyester (ESTAR, Conar, etc) base.
The two plants were indeed separate as the two productions have nothing in common. Too bad one was imploded.
If I understood well, kokak produced what they thought would be a lifetime supply of base for their camera cinema film demand, while all the film produced for Alaris is on the third party base.
I think just imploding the acetate facility was quite a short headed decision..
As far as I can tell, Eastman Kodak is still producing the ESTAR base for Kodak Alaris sheet film in house (Rochester). Have you heard anything to contradict that Ron?IIRC, ICI (Imperial Chemicals) supplies a lot of support. I believe that is where Jim Browning got his and I got mine from Jim and later the Formulary.
Kodak bought, and Ilford buy paper base from Schoeller in Germany. IDK if anyone buys film base there. Please update me.
PE
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