Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

FILM Ferrania · Jun 19, 2017

pbromaghin said:
Ricardo, how long after the website opened did you place your order? I waited a few days to let things settle down and I expect there are a lot of people ahead of me so it will be a while before mine arrives.

If anyone wants to know their relative position in the queue, you can always just email help@filmferrania.it. I'll look you up and give you the best possible estimate.
For what it's worth, we are on course to ship ALL pre-orders by mid-July, so even if you're at the back of the queue, it's just a few more weeks...

bvy · Jun 19, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Compare order numbers if you must, but please keep these things in mind.

Thanks for the info. I don't think anyone's putting too much weight on this exercise. It's just a fun way to pass the time while we wait for our film.

FILM Ferrania · Jun 19, 2017

Wolfeye said:
You mean the seed money they used to start up the much less complex and profitable B&W film? Don't hold your breath.

No one should be holding their breath, of course, because our process is very slow - but this statement is just not accurate.

The "seed money" to start up operations came from the founders out of their own pockets.
This was of course supplemented by the regional government's investment in the building and infrastructure - a process that was both necessary and a huge pain in the butt.
The money raised from the Kickstarter campaign was to purchase machines for future expansions - as detailed in the original Kickstarter text - and that money was long ago used exactly for that purpose.
The "jury" is still out on the profitability of our P30 products. Right now, you're right - we don't make much money at all because we are producing in very small numbers. But the reality is that we cannot move to color until many of these costing issues are solved. That means, for now, it's much better to make a small margin on a small amount of black and white than to simply burn money we don't have to make color film.

I perfectly understand that our promise to deliver color reversal film to Backers is long overdue, but as we have tried to explain multiple times, we had a window to produce that film and the window closed - plain and simple. The only way to re-open the window is the path we have chosen to take - first producing and selling P30 and using this phase to increase both our production and finishing capacity to a level where color film (of any sort) is feasible.

flavio81 · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
We have recently, however, set up and tested a proper signature and frame-numbering perforator. This film is being finished now and will begin shipping in a week or two.

Great news Dave!!

FILM Ferrania · Jun 20, 2017

railwayman3 said:
The facts, as I see it, IMHO, and without any criticism implied:-

It's taken 4 years to produce a B&W film, the delays being largely due to unexpected problems, mostly unforseeable, and underatndably beyond Ferrania's best efforts. There is no reliable indication how much longer it may take to produce an E6 film, and whether this will be a reliable product from day one (or a semi-experimental "Alpha" version) , and competitive with Fuji (or even "New Ektachrome"?) in quality and price.

Ferrania themselve suggested that they would have run out of money if they had not been able to get income from P30, so presumably the Kickstarter money has been spent. IIRC, much of their work so far has been, and is being, done by volunteers? In the longer term they will, presumably, have to pay economic salaries to qualified staff and meet all the ongoing expenses associated with a, still quite substantial, factory ?

Again presumably, income to meet these costs can only come from profits from sale of film. Given that the products, as projected (unusual sizes, specialist types of film, etc., and perhaps, understandably, therefore not cheap), would seem to appeal mainly to us enthusiasts and be unlikely to be sold in Walmarts or Boots, can the volume of sales ever be enough to support the project ? And I believe it is a correct statistic that E6 usage is static and certainly many labs have closed, so, unless Fuji and Kodak (if we get "New Ektachrome?) both pull E6, the competition has to be to draw sales from these two reliable manufacturers. Even more difficult with B&W while several other manufacturers still offer a good selection of readily available and reliable film ?

Not being negative or bashing anyone, I can't see that there is a business plan which is viable long term ? Hopefully, I'm missing something ?

This "armchair doubting" seems to be a sport here on APUG... IMHO

FILM Ferrania · Jun 20, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Because, an ISO 80 - 100 film is far easier to produce!

Thanks P.E. - that's what the team told me as well.

In our case especially, we had everything written out to make P30 in 80 ISO using the machines in the LRF, so it was the "low-hanging fruit".

Toffle · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
This "armchair doubting" seems to be a sport here on APUG... IMHO

They need something to do until they actually have a film in hand to complain about. I hate to say it, but I'm afraid that's when the real sport will begin.

FILM Ferrania · Jun 20, 2017

railwayman3 said:
If you wish to be so pedantic, I quote again from the the Kickstarter Prospectus:-

"In 2012 our founders, Nicola and Marco, knocked on the factory door and FILM Ferrania, named in homage to the original 1923 company, was born."

"We have set up our new operations in the former Ferrania Research & Development (Dead Link Removed) building, which contains a miniature film production line. Our team has been working for more than a year to refurbish and re-engineer this building to prepare it to start. We can make film from this facility, but only a small amount - at a high cost."

OTOH, all that really matters the fact is we're well into 2017, and the film market, particularly for E6, has changed significantly since 2012 when the project was conceived. Is the original project still viable?.....I really hope so, but my own business training and experience keeps ringing alarm bells for them. IDK?

To think that our plan has not changed since 2012 is silly - and quoting something from 5 years ago willfully ignores everything we've said since.

OF COURSE the original project is still viable, or we wouldn't still be doing what we're doing - and OF COURSE the plans behind the project have changed 20 times... They'll change 20 more times because we are adaptive.

You're very right that the market for E6 has changed in the last five years. If Kodak is getting BACK into the E6 business, you can bet it's because the market has changed for the better.

FILM Ferrania · Jun 20, 2017

Toffle said:
They need something to do until they actually have a film in hand to complain about. I hate to say it, but I'm afraid that's when the real sport will begin.

People complaining about the actual product? I'm not afraid about that at all. Remember, I successfully sold Impossible film for the first 5 years it was made and absolutely nothing FILM Ferrania produces will ever be that bad...

Toffle · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
People complaining about the actual product? I'm not afraid about that at all. Remember, I successfully sold Impossible film for the first 5 years it was made and absolutely nothing FILM Ferrania produces will ever be that bad...

...which is much to your credit. Persevere as you have always done. The negative voices, though loud, are few. (though I'm convinced that there are a few who aren't happy unless they're miserable)

FILM Ferrania · Jun 20, 2017

Ok, it seems I'm caught up on the thread now (I was about 6 pages behind!)

To offer a brief update about what's happening now:

We have been experiencing a big fluctuation in the number of films available for shipping each week due to the "by-hand" nature of the finishing process. In fact, the factory is now coating more film each week than we can finish - which is good news in general, if not the best news in actual practice. We are working very hard to open this finishing bottleneck and we're tackling it on three fronts.

For the very near term (next 4-6 weeks), we are pushing our finishing partner to "normalize" the number of finished pieces per week so that we can better plan and divide shipments among warehouses. This will clear out our pre-orders quicker and allow us to grow our stock levels before re-opening the shop.
In the mid-term (by September if everything goes to plan), we are splitting the finishing process in two parts to increase the shippable quantity. To achieve this, we are moving the final packaging of the film to a partner near the factory (former Ferrania folks, actually!). When we trigger this new procedure, you will see a big change in the package itself - smaller, lighter, less waste.
In the longer term, have formed a plan to put our own finishing equipment online much sooner than originally intended. The timeline for this is several months, but the plan is officially underway and will happen independently of our current coating and finishing operations. Once it's up and running, we will move all finishing in-house for 135, 120 and (yes, eventually) 127 film.

For those still waiting for color, I will reiterate what we've said before - all of this work is necessary before we can produce color. The demand for color is several orders of magnitude higher than for B&W and we must be 100% prepared. Ramping up B&W production serves this purpose directly. Our color sensitizers are basically ready and the team has growing confidence that we can at least produce the Kickstarter rewards once we achieve certain milestones in P30 production capacity.

jimjm · Jun 20, 2017

Dave - I'm happy with what I've seen so far. Just developed my first roll today and the results look good to me. Once I dig my film scanner out I'll post some examples on another P30 thread here on APUG. I'm looking forward to making some real prints, though. I'll definitely be buying more P30 once the store has it in stock. Thanks!

railwayman3 · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
This "armchair doubting" seems to be a sport here on APUG... IMHO

It's not armchair doubting.....I've been involved in several businesses over the years, mostly successful, but a couple closed through not being able to adapt to changing customer demands (and, frankly, failing to recognise in time what was happening..."head-in-sand", mea culpa, but you learn lessons!). So naturally I watch Ferrania as a backer but also from the interest of seeing a business develop. My point, made several times, but not addressed, is whether, given the changes in the market over four years, there is still a viable and ongoing long-term demand to give the needed sales volume of the suggested future products (which are of a specialist nature). I'm not negative....but IDK.

klownshed · Jun 20, 2017

railwayman3 said:
My point, made several times, but not addressed, is whether, given the changes in the market over four years, there is still a viable and ongoing long-term demand to give the needed sales volume of the suggested future products (which are of a specialist nature). I'm not negative....but IDK.

Sorry, but why should anybody from Ferrania address your questions? If there wasn’t a market would Ferrania still be forging ahead? And if their market research said that there wasn't, why on earth would they tell anybody on a public forum? You are entitled to have doubts, but expecting those doubts to be directly addressed is unreasonable. Do you expect them to say "oh yeah, thanks for bringing it up. Now that you've told us that you have doubts we may as well stop wasting time and go and sell doughnuts on the beach instead."?

The fact that Ferrania think that their products are viable is obvious by the fact that they are trying to manufacture and sell them. I'm sure they know it won't be easy and that they have their work cut out, and they obviously feel that the effort is worth it. Your answers are there, plain and simple. If Ferrania didn't believe, they'd stop.

They are answering your doubts with actions not words. And we all know that actions speak louder... ;-)

DaveTheWalker · Jun 20, 2017

klownshed said:
They are answering your doubts with actions not words. And we all know that actions speak louder... ;-)

And actions made with pictures speak louder than 1000 words ;-)

RattyMouse · Jun 20, 2017

Approaching the end of June and still no P30 for me.

pbromaghin · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
If anyone wants to know their relative position in the queue, you can always just email help@filmferrania.it. I'll look you up and give you the best possible estimate.
For what it's worth, we are on course to ship ALL pre-orders by mid-July, so even if you're at the back of the queue, it's just a few more weeks...

Dave, thank you. I won't bother you with having to look me up. Whenever it comes is alright.

cmacd123 · Jun 20, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
We explained in a post a while back that because we were using the cinema perforator, there were no frame numbers on the ALPHA run of P30.
We have recently, however, set up and tested a proper signature and frame-numbering perforator. This film is being finished now and will begin shipping in a week or two.

OH, I was quite looking forward to receiving film with the "antique markings"

When I was about 6 years old, I got a toy 8mm Projector, Flash-light battery lamp, and hand cranked. It came with several 25 and 50ft films, and looking at the them to figure out how it worked, with my magnifying glass some said "Kodak Safety Film" along the edge and some said "Ferrania". This was the first time I had encountered that name. While the 8mm Perforator would not have the exact same markings as the 35mm Print perforator, they were similar. it was interesting to see the old marking from my childhood, 50+ years ago.

twelvetone12 · Jun 21, 2017

I just stumpled about some interview of"old" Ferrania employee, but only in Italian:
https://www.youtube.com/user/labaudiovideosdc/
This very long interview (also in Italian) gives very sad record of the last years in the factory:

Is it true that Ferrania had to sold some of its patents to Kodak? The guy also remarks that in the last years radiographic film was one of the core businesses and was not even marketed in Italy.

EDIT: learn how to write "employee"
Some time ago I was talking to an ex-Kodak employee that proudly stated that in Kodak they even made the screws for their machinery. In one of the Ferrania videos there is a guy recalling the same thing, not only all the machines but even the furniture for their offices!

railwayman3 · Jun 21, 2017

klownshed said:
Sorry, but why should anybody from Ferrania address your questions? If there wasn’t a market would Ferrania still be forging ahead? And if their market research said that there wasn't, why on earth would they tell anybody on a public forum? You are entitled to have doubts, but expecting those doubts to be directly addressed is unreasonable. Do you expect them to say "oh yeah, thanks for bringing it up. Now that you've told us that you have doubts we may as well stop wasting time and go and sell doughnuts on the beach instead."?

The fact that Ferrania think that their products are viable is obvious by the fact that they are trying to manufacture and sell them. I'm sure they know it won't be easy and that they have their work cut out, and they obviously feel that the effort is worth it. Your answers are there, plain and simple. If Ferrania didn't believe, they'd stop.

They are answering your doubts with actions not words. And we all know that actions speak louder... ;-)

I'm not suggesting or expecting Ferrania to address my questions, personally or on a Forum. OTOH, who can deny that the market has changed in 3 years, and I still have my doubts that there will be a sufficient ongoing and profitable demand, once the initial novelty and enthusiasm has passed. I consider myself a keen amateur user, but use about one film a week....say 50-60 per year, or say 100 if there is anything special. If I switched all B&W and colour film purchases to
Ferrania (and abandon my regular Ilford and Fuji products for unfamilar and largely untried products! ), that's not going to make or break their project. They will have to show much larger users of film than methat it's worthwhile permanently changing from the big makes (and other smaller makes such as Foma and Adox). Similarly, I'd love to have 127 film to resurrect my baby Rollei, 126 for my dusty old Instamatics, and even the occasional APS film.....but I wouldn't buy or use any of these sizes in any quantity for serious photography.

I'm quite sure that Ferrania were honest with their beliefs at the time of the Kickstarter project (otherwise I wouldn't have personally donated at one of the higher levels) and I am sure that they still believe. OTOH, many inventors and business people have honestly believed in numerous schemes, but changing circumstances have overtaken them (try Googling "George Bennie" and his "Railplane", a fascinating story to read in any event).

We shall see...as you say, actions speak, and belief and enthusiasm is good, but results are what count in business.

Berri · Jun 22, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Oh Berri, nothing ever seems to look good to you where we are concerned...

We explained in a post a while back that because we were using the cinema perforator, there were no frame numbers on the ALPHA run of P30.

We have recently, however, set up and tested a proper signature and frame-numbering perforator. This film is being finished now and will begin shipping in a week or two.

You may be right, but your attitude towards who doesn't sing your praises is just arrogant. You shouldn't consider people who have doubts your enemies but your potential customers; not very professional IMHO.
Now you say that all of this BW step is necessary in order to produce colour film and you don't know when colour film will eventually be produced. Didn't you know this when the project started? That is my only concern, Ferrania has always been over optimistic and ended up loosing credibility.

I also don't like the way you sound all friendly and cool to whoever blindly support the project, but cold and a tiny bit smug to people who have legitimate concerns. To be honest I'm happy my money don't pay your job

Berri · Jun 22, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
The only way to re-open the window is the path we have chosen to take - first producing and selling P30

Wasn't P30 some sort of a happy incident and it made you guys say "hey, you know what, we should sell this stuff, it's great!"

pdeeh · Jun 22, 2017

Just remembered something I wrote in 2014, in the original "Part 1" of this thread:

pdeeh said:
Of course the next stage with FF is when they miss a deadline (or say that they won't make a Kodachrome clone in 828, or ... ) whereupon they will suddenly become the most craven idiots in the history of Christendom who never had a clue in the first place.

fdonadio · Jun 22, 2017

After ignoring some people, this thread looks a little better.

klownshed · Jun 22, 2017

fdonadio said:
After ignoring some people, this thread looks a little better.

And only 10 pages long? ;-)

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency