Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

railwayman3 · Dec 23, 2017

I
Until I read this thread I thought that I might try the Bellini kit. But. as the official instructions and the advice given seem so ambiguous, I think that I'll stay with one of the known kits that give clear instructions and proven results.

TonyB65 · Dec 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Here is your OP in this thread.

I think that these speak for themselves.

NO one has been in the lab and done these experiments unless we have some unseen Kodak, Fuji or Bellini individuals hiding here. I have done them.

Kodak developed a no wash process with no toxic effluent in the '70s but did not proceed at that time.

PE

I'm not sure what your point is that? that Fuji or Bellini sell products they don't test?

TonyB65 · Dec 23, 2017

Craig said:
You're new here so I'll give you lots of slack, but consider there are people here who's names are on the Kodak patents for the development of colour negative films and chemistry, your statement about who the "experts" are is very amusing to me. It seems to me that it's like saying the corner mechanic knows more about vehicle engineering than the people at the car makers R&D centre.

Consider the true experts here offer their advice freely, unlike your vendor who has a vested interest in selling you something.

Well the problem with these experts is firstly they didn't take the time to read and understand what I said, and secondly they couldn't identify what the process actually is, which Halfaman did in a single post. So you can bandy around the term "experts" all day long. Some of these people may have been experts, but clearly they're not current or expert enough to identify a process that has obviously been around a while. Maybe people should have a think before they pile in telling me about a product I've used and they haven't. The only person here, who I would reliably identify as an expert, based on this thread, is Halfaman, because he was bang on the money with his assessment and description of this product, without making unsubstantiated claims either way. I'm not an expert in this field at all, but neither am I stupid, and I am perfectly capable of making a rational assessment of the facts as they stand. The facts are as Halfaman described them, because he exactly described what this kit is and what it does. I came on this thread to assist the OP, and people wrongfully decided to attack me about what this kit does, when I was right all along, does that make me an expert now?

bestbefore1978 · Dec 23, 2017

Ok, so despite the arguments on here about the validity of the kit’s instructions regarding washing, I can vouch for this kit being a good choice for those who want a small 1L separate bleach and fix kit in the UK, producing to my eyes good results, better than the blix kit I used previously, where I occasionally suffered crossed curves.
It is cheaper than both the 5L Fuji Hunt offering and the Digibase kit and has the advantages of no blix over the Tetenal 2 bath kit.

I have chosen to reinstate a stop bath and rinses between each step as well as a wash before the stabiliser, but this is primarily because the machine I am using causes contamination by carryover, whereas when hand processing in a small tank it may not be such a problem.

I assume that there is no problem in rinsing between stages if you wish to prolong the life of the chems as the bleach or fix doesn’t rely on carryover to kickstart the next process (as I believe some of the stages in E6 6 bath require - pre-bleach to bleach maybe?)

halfaman · Dec 23, 2017

C-41 RA is a well known process designed for minilabs, I found several times this kind of chemsitry when I was looking for alternative (and cheaper) supply beyond kits. I don't think anybody is going to introduce it in an commercial enviroment if it is not reliable enough. Another thing is how Bellini is handling it, that seems very sloopy to me regarding the instructions.

One additional remarks checking again the Fuji manual. There is no wash between bleach and fix, but film must go through two fixer baths.

I still don't like Bellini kit. Perhaps stand well price-wise among the 1 liter kits, but the cost difference per liter compared with 2,5 kit is high (hughe compared with 5 liter kits).

RPC said:
The developer is made from a single bottle. I would not trust it to be fresh.

Some Fuji and Tetenal color developers for minilabs are monocomponent for easier handling.

pentaxuser · Dec 23, 2017

halfaman said:
Some Fuji and Tetenal color developers for minilabs are monocomponent for easier handling.

This reminds me to ask RPC what he believes to be the problem with the developer being in one bottle only i.e. a monocomponent. It is clear from at least two members that the kit works well and in the U.K. it is competitively priced. That leaves only the issue of longevity in the long-term and the apparent contradiction in what the instructions say about no water needed and allegedly what the Bellini technicians say in contradiction to this instruction statement

I am still hoping for a response from Berri who gave us the Bellini e-mail in Italian only which as his English is impeccable I am surprised he didn't translate it for us and Twelvetone12 who is also seeking a response from Bellini

pentaxuser

TonyB65 · Dec 23, 2017

pentaxuser said:
This reminds me to ask RPC what he believes to be the problem with the developer being in one bottle only i.e. a monocomponent. It is clear from at least two members that the kit works well and in the U.K. it is competitively priced. That leaves only the issue of longevity in the long-term and the apparent contradiction in what the instructions say about no water needed and allegedly what the Bellini technicians say in contradiction to this instruction statement

I am still hoping for a response from Berri who gave us the Bellini e-mail in Italian only which as his English is impeccable I am surprised he didn't translate it for us and Twelvetone12 who is also seeking a response from Bellini

pentaxuser

I already gave you the translation, there is no contradiction in what they said compared to the instructions, if you believe there is I'd like to see it.

trendland · Dec 23, 2017

railwayman3 said:
I
Until I read this thread I thought that I might try the Bellini kit. But. as the official instructions and the advice given seem so ambiguous, I think that I'll stay with one of the known kits that give clear instructions and proven results.

Railwayman3 from my point here is no need to be affraid of.
I wonder of this discussion a bit - I have to state. Normaly these days there might be problems with chems because they are not avaible in some contries any longer.
The search to substitute these chems began and often it is a question of effects from reformulation.
But here the issue is quite simple.
The chem of confusion is H2O (avaible in most contries afaik.)
So if you like the Bellini Kit (and it is avaible at your local store - with nice price) why not try out ?
If you may have alternate c41 chems it is a question of pricing I would like to state.
The long time stability (if it is effected - would not mean that your negatives lost all colors within 18 month).
But I would not bet for it will be all right after 18 years.
To avoid this THATS VERY SIMPLE FROM UNDERSTANDING - you may have a good final wash (with water).
After this the Bellini stabilizer may show its outstanding performance.

...
I am with some doubts about that Bellini
is using total different chems than Fuji,Kodak,Tetenal a.s.o. as stabilizer.
But even if this kit contains the new "world formula" I would put my hands into fire that a simple washing with H2O isn't able to destroy the capability of the stabilizer in the following step.
To be very sure you may use the Bellini stabilizer as described 2 - 4 times.

Friends the Bellinis phrase a washing (before stabilizing) is contraproductive couln't mean it is contraproductive in concern of a good developing with c41.
It is just against the intention of Bellini
in regard of a total WASHLESS PROCESS.

HOPE THIS DISCUSSION WILL NOT LAST TO THE NEXT YEAR.

...

with regards

Photo Engineer · Dec 23, 2017

TonyB65 said:
I'm not sure what your point is that? that Fuji or Bellini sell products they don't test?

No, my point was what you said first, and then I said that only someone who has intimate experience with the process knows what is really going on. You have apparently either never run the process or are very new to it.

As for a single part developer kit, a color developing agent keeps best in solution when it is acidic. It also keeps best when in the presence of sulfur dioxide or sulfite ion. Therefore, color developer in a liquid kit keeps best in a solution of acid (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and sulfur dioxide or sodium sulfite. A single part kit is alkaline, and therefore keeping is pretty poor. But then again, we come to the different intended customers. If you use developer in a hurry and with big throughput, a single part kit is good. When you are using the kit a bit at a time, a 3 part kit is best.

PE

TonyB65 · Dec 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
No, my point was what you said first, and then I said that only someone who has intimate experience with the process knows what is really going on. You have apparently either never run the process or are very new to it.

As for a single part developer kit, a color developing agent keeps best in solution when it is acidic. It also keeps best when in the presence of sulfur dioxide or sulfite ion. Therefore, color developer in a liquid kit keeps best in a solution of acid (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and sulfur dioxide or sodium sulfite. A single part kit is alkaline, and therefore keeping is pretty poor. But then again, we come to the different intended customers. If you use developer in a hurry and with big throughput, a single part kit is good. When you are using the kit a bit at a time, a 3 part kit is best.

PE

Ok, that someone for me would be the manufacturer, so I follow their instructions. I use a vacuum pump to keep my chemicals airtight, it seems to work pretty well.

RPC · Dec 23, 2017

Yes as PE commented the customer is an important factor. The single bottle developer, and totally washless process is suitable for some applications, but by no means all.

The single part developer would be suitable for a lab. For the home user it would be convenient, but also problematic if not used quickly, or replenishment is not used. Labs use replenishment.

As for the lack of wash between bleach and fixer, this may work fine in a lab machine where the fixer is under constant replenishment. But this generally would not happen in a home user environment, and contamination would be a problem.

The stabilizer wash may work fine for short term stability, which in the age of scanning would not be a big concern, so again would be suitable for a lab. But it is questionable for long term stability, and this may be important to the home user.

Without replenishment, or not using chemistry one-shot, It is likely whatever quality one starts with would quickly degrade with use.

It appears this kit is simply modeled after processes designed for labs, and has been applied to a home user kit design. With this comes many potential problems. Without meaningful tests, one can never be sure of getting the quality negatives that should be expected. For this kit to be viable for the C-41 user, Bellini should not only perform tests to determine its viability, but make the results available to the user. Until that is done, buyer beware.

trendland · Dec 23, 2017

RPC said:
Yes as PE commented the customer is an important factor. The single bottle developer, and totally washless process is suitable for some applications, but by no means all.

The single part developer would be suitable for a lab. For the home user it would be convenient, but also problematic if not used quickly, or replenishment is not used. Labs use replenishment.

As for the lack of wash between bleach and fixer, this may work fine in a lab machine where the fixer is under constant replenishment. But this generally would not happen in a home user environment, and contamination would be a problem.

The stabilizer wash may work fine for short term stability, which in the age of scanning would not be a big concern, so again would be suitable for a lab. But it is questionable for long term stability, and this may be important to the home user.

Without replenishment, or not using chemistry one-shot, It is likely whatever quality one starts with would quickly degrade with use.

It appears this kit is simply modeled after processes designed for labs, and has been applied to a home user kit design. With this comes many potential problems. Without meaningful tests, one can never be sure of getting the quality negatives that should be expected. For this kit to be viable for the C-41 user, Bellini should not only perform tests to determine its viability, but make the results available to the user. Until that is done, buyer beware.

Buyer beware? As I mentioned above their should be no reason to be afraid of buying this kit.
Because c41 is a very simple standard process and EVERY comercial chemicals from there are able to fullfill the job right.

But beware of simplemind workflow with this (and possible other) kit (s) ?

As we should know from Rollei Digibase chems (cause of Rollei itself isn't manufacturing chems and more) the chems allways came from same source.
In case of Digibase it is obviously identical with Fujihunt.
Here (with Bellini) it is obviously clear the chems are not made from them.
So the job of Bellini was to decant ordinary minilab chems - or better to ask the manufacturer for filling it in a nice Bellini package.
But I can't see a real problem. Here are lots of people who are mixing chems from kits. For example if the bleach from kit A is off they are using the rest of bleach from kit B with the CD of kit B.
The correct workflow has a more impact than using allways Fuji chems with Fuji films.
So as you mentioned contamination (of baths) there is a simple way to awoid this (with a short water step between).
From my understanding of instructions it is allways a nice recommandation to me.
I am often with a short look viewing : "What do they recommand " - and after this I did it my way. Sometimes it is the same.
Here it isn't so. Here we will need water.

Notice : If there would be an instruction for live - would you follow it every day?

And instructions from companys are somtimes not to be followed.

But If you have less experience it might be a real problem

We may see this here, therfore : ONE HAVE TO TRUST TO SAY : "No washing required - what a nonsence.This are my films - I am the boss of my own - and my films get washed now !!!!
But therefore one have to take the responsibility AND not to whimper what
Bellini has told us.

.....

with regards

Photo Engineer · Dec 23, 2017

The manufacturer of AUTHENTIC C41 film and process solutions is Kodak. Fuji makes the film and solutions under license or by reverse engineering. I prefer to believe them. They say otherwise than Bellini seems to be saying if the reporting here is to be believed.

PE

AgX · Dec 23, 2017

trendland said:
Here (with Bellini) it is obviously clear the chems are not made from them.
So the job of Bellini was to decant ordinary minilab chems - or better to ask the manufacturer for filling it in a nice Bellini package.

Bellini does exactly the same as their competitors as Fuji-Hunt or Tetenal do: blending chemicals.
None of them manufactures pure chemicals.

pentaxuser · Dec 23, 2017

TonyB65 said:
I already gave you the translation, there is no contradiction in what they said compared to the instructions, if you believe there is I'd like to see it.

Thanks for that. I had not realised that this was a direct "Google" translation of what Berri's reply from Bellini had said. My fault for not spotting this. Your translation and the Berri reply were a couple of pages apart and the thread had become increasingly fractious in the ensuing period. Never the best atmosphere in which to absorb information properly - at least not for me.

It is clear to me that by any normal definition of washless/waterless the Bellini technicians are saying exactly that. There is no contradiction that I can see so I am unsure how Berri thinks that they are saying something different.

pentaxuser

RPC · Dec 23, 2017

trendland said:
Buyer beware? As I mentioned above their should be no reason to be afraid of buying this kit.
Because c41 is a very simple standard process and EVERY comercial chemicals from there are able to fullfill the job right.

Color processes are critical processes. The chemistry must be made right to get optimum results. The same with processing parameters. If you deviate enough from the standard, you will have problems. The potential problems have been pointed out.

trendland said:
And instructions from companys are somtimes not to be followed.

But If you have less experience it might be a real problem

We may see this here, therfore : ONE HAVE TO TRUST TO SAY : "No washing required - what a nonsence.This are my films - I am the boss of my own - and my films get washed now !!!!
But therefore one have to take the responsibility AND not to whimper what
Bellini has told us.

Good point. But will everybody who wants to use this kit know this? In this thread some of us have tried to inform and warn. But we get arguments instead of thanks.

trendland · Dec 24, 2017

RPC said:
Color processes are critical processes. The chemistry must be made right to get optimum results. The same with processing parameters. If you deviate enough from the standard, you will have problems. The potential problems have been pointed out.

Good point. But will everybody who wants to use this kit know this? In this thread some of us have tried to inform and warn. But we get arguments instead of thanks.

Quite right RPC - the point of critical process isn't right in any way.My first c41 developement was 1978.After I developed just a couple of bw films.
And it has gone good to me.
If you know what to do it is real easy.
The temperatures are a bit complicate without Jobo temperatured processor.

But that's not the matter - my point was to state that all of this fresh comercial developer kits are able to fullfill there Job good if one is able to do it right - better do it best.SOMETIMES against the official instruction.

with regards

trendland · Dec 24, 2017

AgX said:
Bellini does exactly the same as their competitors as Fuji-Hunt or Tetenal do: blending chemicals.
None of them manufactures pure chemicals.

And sometimes they mixed the stuff between each of them - I just wanted to state....
A friend who worked some years ago at a big proffessional store where photographers ordered great ammounds of films ask me every few month if Tetenal still exist.
Last year I had a short look to their facility. Indeed Tetenal stiĺl exist - I have an idea of they are bigger now than ever.
I saw more than 30 big trucks an they all were busy.
No wonder about because they are shipping worldwide meanwhile.
So Tetenal supplies Ilford with some standard chems to bw today.I have an idea of they
made also complete packaging to some Ilford liquids - but can't say for sure.

with regards

trendland · Dec 24, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
The manufacturer of AUTHENTIC C41 film and process solutions is Kodak. Fuji makes the film and solutions under license or by reverse engineering. I prefer to believe them. They say otherwise than Bellini seems to be saying if the reporting here is to be believed.

PE

Indeed good point - because the leading company is allways making the rules and set the standard caused from ownership of most patents.
As we remember Agfa and Fuji cancelt their own color negative processes in the 60th/70th one of last simular Agfa processes I just remember (CN 17) was different to C22/C41 but in the every near.
So we can say every 3 bath kit isn't original C41 - but it should work.
Thats I wanted to state with.

with regards

trendland · Dec 24, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
The manufacturer of AUTHENTIC C41 film and process solutions is Kodak. Fuji makes the film and solutions under license or by reverse engineering. I prefer to believe them. They say otherwise than Bellini seems to be saying if the reporting here is to be believed.

PE

Ähhhmm.... forgetting to state :
Merry Christmes to you and each other

with regards

AgX · Dec 24, 2017

trendland said:
As we remember Agfa and Fuji cancelt their own color negative processes in the 60th/70th one of last simular Agfa processes I just remember (CN 17) was different to C22/C41 but in the every near.

Agfa used a complete different developing process. Something that cannot be compared to using a more or less split kit.

Young He · Dec 24, 2017

Just gonna drop in with my 1/2 cent..... I'm rather late to this discussion too!
I haven't read all the posts word for word so I might be restating what other people have said, but here goes. The bellini kit might be worth it, as there is a separate bleach and fix , which could potentially give more archival results than other press kits. However, the Unicolor c41 kit (Available from freestyle 2 liters for $30) gives very good results with minimal mixing, and has quite a long shelf life. The results are very consistent and even though it comes in a powder form, it is quite easy to mix and one could theoretically separate the blix into bleach and fix to give more archival results.
IMO the mono-part capability of the Bellini kit is detrimental to the storage time, and the Unicolor kit can easily process 30 rolls of 35mm with, AFAIK, no noticeable silver retention in printing or scanning. However, the bellini kit is fairly inexpensive, although I would think that a wash after the fixer and before the stabilizer would give more archival results that don't reek of bleach or fix.
Even with the minilab super stabilizers or whatever they're called I'm pretty sure a wash would be helpful for the archival-ness of the processed film, although most of the time it is not needed because the film is not returned to the customer. In the case of a lab, the water wash uses up valuable time and money, so I think it's more of a economic factor that removes the water wash.

Take my opinion with an atom of silver because I have only tried one c41 kit and am not an expert by any means, unless you count the art of badly exposing pictures.

MattKing · Dec 24, 2017

Young He said:
Even with the minilab super stabilizers or whatever they're called I'm pretty sure a wash would be helpful for the archival-ness of the processed film, although most of the time it is not needed because the film is not returned to the customer. In the case of a lab, the water wash uses up valuable time and money, so I think it's more of a economic factor that removes the water wash.

This - highlight added.
A large percentage of lab processed films are now discarded - the customer only receives prints and scans. The Bellini minilab products (along with all "washless" products) reflect this market reality.

pentaxuser · Dec 24, 2017

MattKing said:
This - highlight added.
A large percentage of lab processed films are now discarded - the customer only receives prints and scans. The Bellini minilab products (along with all "washless" products) reflect this market reality.

A lot of walk-in labs hand-over the film to the customer when he goes to collect, surely. Certainly my local mini-lab does and as TonyB65 and a few others have said the Bellini kit seems to be aimed at the home processor. It may be of course that either the film's longevity even if not as long as one done in the full water wash process will be (a) long enough to outlast the user's interest (b) long enough to outlast Bellini or (c) long enough for the user to decide to scan the negs and forget about/throw away the film.

pentaxuser

Berri · Dec 30, 2017

pentaxuser said:
It is clear to me that by any normal definition of washless/waterless the Bellini technicians are saying exactly that. There is no contradiction that I can see so I am unsure how Berri thinks that they are saying something different.

I don't know what you are trying to say, but i just reported what they told me. "there is no need for washing, apart from a wash after fixing" How do you get it? I understand that ther is no need to wash between dev-fix-bleach but there is need to wash at the end before stab. You do what you like with your film

Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

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