Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

MattKing · Dec 22, 2017

I'm sure that the procedure and chemicals they recommend for their professional lab customers provides better longevity than the procedure and chemicals they recommend for their "washless" (no water wash) minilab customers.
And it seems clear that the home "kits" are packaged from the minilab materials. Otherwise there would be a recommendation in them for a water wash.
The question and answer pair in the instructions is vague and overly generalized. I expect due to problems in translation.

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
The stab and wash are one and the same, which is what I have contended all along, feel free to check.

You have pointed out that Bellini is saying that no washes of any kind are required and are detrimental. Again I say this is contradictory to mainstream knowledge which is due to established test results of engineers and experiences of home users. Do you still believe you are getting properly processed negatives? Have you seen Bellini's test results?

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

The developer is made from a single bottle. I would not trust it to be fresh. Nor would I expect the developer to produce in-spec results, even if fresh. The link in the OP says it is the best C-41 kit available anywhere. That depends on your viewpoint. For convenience, perhaps, but certainly not quality.

halfaman · Dec 22, 2017

My best guess here is that Bellini is selling Fuji chemicals for C-41 RA and RANP variants (or Tetenal compatibles) that don't have final rinse by using a so-called "super stabilizer" at the end. In addition to act as magenta dye stabilizer and wetting agent, Fuji stated that this super stabilizer "works by washing the majority of processing chemicals and by-products from the film emulsion and then reacting with any remaining chemicals to form stable, inert compounds".

Here you have the document. C-41 processes are defined from pages 10 to 12.
http://www.fujifilm-mea.com/fileadm...iles/Technical_bulletins/TB_C41_E13_09-10.pdf

In RA process a wash is needed between fix and the super stabilizer. In RANP is not neccesary but the the film must pass through three different baths of super stabilizer in order to do the work.

One thing I think nobody has mentioned is that this chemistry is very expensive, C-41 RA Bleach is quite costly and C-41 RA Fixer doubles the ammount of hypo of the standard one. You can get Tetenal Colortec, Rollei Colorchem or Fuji Hunt X-Press kits for far less money per liter. With the exception of shorter times, I don't see any other advantage in this Bellini kit for the average amateur.

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

No, there is no advantage. High cost, and poor quality.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

halfaman said:
My best guess here is that Bellini is selling Fuji chemicals for C-41 RA and RANP variants (or Tetenal compatibles) that don't have final rinse by using a so-called "super stabilizer" at the end. In addition to act as magenta dye stabilizer and wetting agent, Fuji stated that this super stabilizer "works by washing the majority of processing chemicals and by-products from the film emulsion and then reacting with any remaining chemicals to form stable, inert compounds".

Here you have the document. C-41 processes are defined from pages 10 to 12.
http://www.fujifilm-mea.com/fileadm...iles/Technical_bulletins/TB_C41_E13_09-10.pdf

In RA process a wash is needed between fix and the super stabilizer. In RANP is not neccesary but the the film must pass through three different baths of super stabilizer in order to do the work.

One thing I think nobody has mentioned is that this chemistry is very expensive, C-41 RA Bleach is quite costly and C-41 RA Fixer doubles the ammount of hypo of the standard one. You can get Tetenal Colortec, Rollei Colorchem or Fuji Hunt X-Press kits for far less money per liter. With the exception of shorter times, I don't see any other advantage in this Bellini kit for the average amateur.

How you describe it makes sense, and actually, certainly here, it's not more expensive than comparable products, but it's certainly easier to use.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

RPC said:
No, there is no advantage. High cost, and poor quality.

Nope, it's high quality, as recommended by professionals who use it, and it's actually comparable in price here, and easier to use. I just love the experts on it here who've never even used it.

twelvetone12 · Dec 22, 2017

halfaman said:
I don't see any other advantage in this Bellini kit for the average amateur.

I choose the Bellini because it was the only one I could source that had separate bleach and fix, and, at least in Italy, it is cheaper than the alternatives (but at the time I did not know it was washless).

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
I choose the Bellini because it was the only one I could source that had separate bleach and fix, and, at least in Italy, it is cheaper than the alternatives (but at the time I did not know it was washless).

*Sigh* It isn't washless, the stab wash is the wash., you just don't carry out a seperate water wash.

twelvetone12 · Dec 22, 2017

...making it washless...

bvy · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
I've never seen any archival claims from Ilford either, I presume that manufacturers generally avoid making claims on many things, for fear of law-suits, absence of any claim proves nothing, except in your world apparently. I assume that an established manufacturer with one business is not going to make products that don't stand the test of time, it obviously isn't a good business model. They wouldn't have survived 30 years if their products weren't decent quality, but then again I do use my common sense about these things.

You can make assumptions. I'm going to make informed decisions.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

bvy said:
You can make assumptions. I'm going to make informed decisions.

Well we've already established you aren't informed on the archival properties of this developer, because you avoided answering the question of how you know about its archival properties, Your "informed decision" would best be described as guesswork.

bvy · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
archival properties of this developer

I think we're done here.

pentaxuser · Dec 22, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
I choose the Bellini because it was the only one I could source that had separate bleach and fix, and, at least in Italy, it is cheaper than the alternatives (but at the time I did not know it was washless).

I take it you have had no reply from Bellini, Twelvetone12. We have seen Bellini's reply to Berri but that is in Italian so I am none the wiser unfortunately about what it actually says.

Thanks

pentaxuser

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

bvy said:
I think we're done here.

You might be, but I think you and one or two others might like to think twice before jumping all over me when I have been correct all along. Halfaman basically hit the nail on the head and described this kit perfectly.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I take it you have had no reply from Bellini, Twelvetone12. We have seen Bellini's reply to Berri but that is in Italian so I am none the wiser unfortunately about what it actually says.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Maybe I can help, here's the translation according to google translate, you may note that there is no mention of stab, that's because the stab is included in the wash as per Halfaman's analysis and as I have frequently repeated. The wash with stab is repeated a minimum of two times but 3 to 4 is recommended.

in the C41 treatment there are no washings between the various baths,

if not at the end of the treatment to wash the fixing from the film.

Attached the treatment card.

The only product that deteriorates with time for oxidation is the development, however the residual concentrate, appropriately closed and eliminated the air from the bottle has a duration of several months.

Diluted working solutions have a very long life with regard to bleaching and fixing. The diluted development must be placed in a dark container, suitably closed and in the absence of air, otherwise yes

it deteriorates in a few days.

The development, once deteriorated, compromises the result, during a possible second use, clearly irreversibly.

While if I have problems with bleaching or fixing, I can repeat the baths

a second time with fresh product, repairing any malfunction of the same for incorrect storage.

It is therefore very important to always try to use fresh development!

Having bleached and split fixtures is essential for a good result in film development, some houses have decided to combine them to save time,

the films, however, are not all the same and some may have different problems with bleaching-fixing, having two separate baths is the correct choice and qualitatively better.

Our product allows to finish the treatment in 5'30 "total, we used the processing RA (Rapid Access Kodak) 3'15" of development (note that our development is single-piece, easy to use and

dilute compared to the classic 3 parts)

bleaching has a duration of 45 "

the fixing of 1'30 "

follows the washing of minimum recommended duration but absolutely variable and extendable as desired.

I hope I was clear and complete.

Best regards

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
Nope, it's high quality, as recommended by professionals who use it, and it's actually comparable in price here, and easier to use. I just love the experts on it here who've never even used it.

What credentials do your "professionals" have?

There are people here who are experienced at using the C-41 process and many have learned the workings of the process through literature and/or their own trials or tribulations with the process. Many are not experts, but know enough to question such a kit, and rightfully they should. This is something you don't seem to understand. What is your level of expertise? Are you knowledgable of the C-41 process and chemistry? Do you have the experience to know what contaminations can take place and what their effects are, and how critical the developer and development must be? There are some here who do, and you are trying to argue with them.

The translated letter and halfaman's post fail to tell us that high quality can be expected from this product.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

RPC said:
What credentials do your "professionals" have?

There are people here who are experienced at using the C-41 process and many have learned the workings of the process through literature and/or their own trials or tribulations with the process. Many are not experts, but know enough to question such a kit, and rightfully they should. This is something you don't seem to understand. What is your level of expertise? Are you knowledgable of the C-41 process and chemistry? Do you have the experience to know what contaminations can take place and what their effects are, and how critical the developer and development must be? There are some here who do, and you are trying to argue with them.

The translated letter fails to tell us that high quality can be expected from this product.

My knowledge of this kit is obviously better than most here as I've actually used it, and the only person here I would consider an expert is the person who completely accurately described it to the letter, that was Halfaman. While you were all busy jumping down my throat it turns out I was correct all along. This is why I take self proclaimed experts advice with a pinch of salt. I followed this kit to the letter, I was correct about the stab wash, I am correct about the Bellini kit and its instructions, even their own instructions to another poster verifies what I said. So what exactly have I missed? Some guesswork from some people who couldn't even describe the kit as Halfaman did? who didn't know about super stab? who didn't know that Fuji produce a similar if not the same product? Exactly what have I missed? If anything several people owe me an apology, which I very much doubt I'll get. Rest assured, if I had behaved like that I would have the good grace to issue an apology, but then I wouldn't behave in that way in the first place.

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

I believe the super stab was addressed in an earlier post by AgX but it wasn't specifically called that.

But that, and nothing you have said, tells us anything about the quality of this product. Does the developer produce parallel characteristic curves? Does the lack of a wash between bleach and fixer result in contamination of the fixer as might be expected? Is all the silver and silver halides removed properly? Do we really know if Fuji's method is as reliable as a proper wash? Nothing you, or anybody has said gives us the answers to these questions.

TonyB65 · Dec 22, 2017

RPC said:
I believe the super stab was addressed in an earlier post by AgX but it wasn't specifically called that.

But that, and nothing you have said, tells us anything about the quality of this product. Does the developer produce parallel characteristic curves? Does the lack of a wash between bleach and fixer result in contamination of the fixer as might be expected? Is all the silver and silver halides removed properly? Do we really know if Fuji's method is as reliable as a proper wash? Nothing you, or anybody has said gives us the answers to these questions.

The fact that both Fuji and Bellini use it would suggest it's a tested and established product, neither have I seen or heard of anyone having issues with it, in fact quite the opposite.

RPC · Dec 22, 2017

Considering the other questions that are yet to be answered about this product that I addressed above, I think the issue of the stabilizer is the least important.

Photo Engineer · Dec 22, 2017

Fin said:
Billed by Nik & Trick (who I buy supplies from fairly often) as 'The best C41 kit available anywhere'.

The datasheet shows a very short overall process with no washing.

In a few months once my Digibase kit is exhausted, I might have a go with this and report back!

Here is the OP.

Photo Engineer · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
Just to update this thread, I have used the Bellini Kit, it is very good and you do not wash the film separately, the stab is effectively the wash process and washing afterwards is in fact detrimental to the film.

Here is your OP in this thread.

I think that these speak for themselves.

NO one has been in the lab and done these experiments unless we have some unseen Kodak, Fuji or Bellini individuals hiding here. I have done them.

Kodak developed a no wash process with no toxic effluent in the '70s but did not proceed at that time.

PE

Craig · Dec 22, 2017

TonyB65 said:
and the only person here I would consider an expert is the person who completely accurately described it to the letter, that was Halfaman.

You're new here so I'll give you lots of slack, but consider there are people here who's names are on the Kodak patents for the development of colour negative films and chemistry, your statement about who the "experts" are is very amusing to me. It seems to me that it's like saying the corner mechanic knows more about vehicle engineering than the people at the car makers R&D centre.

Consider the true experts here offer their advice freely, unlike your vendor who has a vested interest in selling you something.

twelvetone12 · Dec 23, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I take it you have had no reply from Bellini, Twelvetone12. We have seen Bellini's reply to Berri but that is in Italian so I am none the wiser unfortunately about what it actually says.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Nope not yet (maybe they are closed for Christmas). I thought this was a mini-version of the complete C41, like their reversal kit is e6.

Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

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