Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[mshchem]

Maybe it's Catlabschrome. Unfortunately it's not likely to be anything like Cibachrome. Pack film, nope. Crappy color film probably, maybe decent color film produced by Kodak. Ilford needs to figure out a way to sell photo papers, this is a huge issue, job 1...

Who knows, other than Nico, and he's not talking!!!!

 

[foc]

Orwo, Lucky, Polaroid, Efke, ERA, Forte, Fuda, Ilford (Super HR) all made colour negative film at one point or another. And I’m sure a few others.

Some of the names above did manufacture C41 films while some manufactured Colour film based on the old Agfacolor process (pre C41) This Agfacolor process is now obsolete, and for a good reason. It couldn't keep up with colour, quality and grain of the modern C41 films.

So the list is not really a correct representation of color film manufacturers.

• Orwo 35 mm was old Agfacolor based until the late 1980s. They did manufacture some C41 and then rebadged, Ferrania & Konica 35mm film.
• Lucky C41 35mm was partnered with Kodak for a while.
• Polaroid C41 35mm was rebadged Agfa-Gevaert, Konica, Ferrania.
• Efke 35mm was old Agfacolor based and then C41 was rebadged Ferrania & Konica.
• Era C41 35mm was made in China, so I presume by Lucky.
• Forte 35mm was old Agfacolor based and C41 was rebadged Ferrania, Agfa-Gevaert, Konica.
• Fuda C41 35mm was made in China, so I presume by Lucky.
• Ilfocolor C41 35mm, from the early 1980s to mid1990 (?) was rebadged Konica, Ferrania, Agfa-Gevaert.

So as we can see, C41 film manufacture is not simple and easy to do. If it was, there would be more companies doing it.

 

[warden]

Harman Technology has had a Facebook and Twitter account for a number of years surely

Does the surely mean you haven't checked? You can check for yourself without a Facebook account and see with a google search that Harman Technology and Harman Photo both have a presence on Facebook, and that they're both terrible. Harman Technology has a page that hasn't been updated since Feb 2021 if you can believe that, and Harman Photo has only four posts about "Coming Soon". That's it for Facebook.

Look, Harman are bad at social media. Comically bad. And that's okay, I get the feeling they're focused on making complicated products rather than social media. It's fine.

Ilford does a much better job on social media, with about a half million followers on Instagram and a solid effort of outreach on Youtube too, with engaging videos for beginners and experts alike. Ilford leverages investment in social media to sell product. It costs them money and time but it's worth it.

If as a few have speculated Harman may end up marketing products without the Ilford name, well I wish them luck. They will need it! If that is the case they should hire a PR/Social Media executive like yesterday.

 

[Helge]

Some of the names above did manufacture C41 films while some manufactured Colour film based on the old Agfacolor process (pre C41) This Agfacolor process is now obsolete, and for a good reason. It couldn't keep up with colour, quality and grain of the modern C41 films.

So the list is not really a correct representation of color film manufacturers.

• Orwo 35 mm was old Agfacolor based until the late 1980s. They did manufacture some C41 and then rebadged, Ferrania & Konica 35mm film.
• Lucky C41 35mm was partnered with Kodak for a while.
• Polaroid C41 35mm was rebadged Agfa-Gevaert, Konica, Ferrania.
• Efke 35mm was old Agfacolor based and then C41 was rebadged Ferrania & Konica.
• Era C41 35mm was made in China, so I presume by Lucky.
• Forte 35mm was old Agfacolor based and C41 was rebadged Ferrania, Agfa-Gevaert, Konica.
• Fuda C41 35mm was made in China, so I presume by Lucky.
• Ilfocolor C41 35mm, from the early 1980s to mid1990 (?) was rebadged Konica, Ferrania, Agfa-Gevaert.

So as we can see, C41 film manufacture is not simple and easy to do. If it was, there would be more companies doing it.

OK, you have me convinced that you know a lot more about this than I do.
But, you also seem very eager to prove a point.

Lucky, even if they where partnered with Kodak, did have have the ability to coat stuff like VR film and produced their own film too.
Polaroid also had instant slide AFAIK.

I’m really not doubting you, but in principle we don’t have anything but your word.

Not that it makes a huge amount of difference, notice that I talked about colour negative film. Not C-41 exclusively.
Previous CN film was also closely related to the principles in Kodacolor post 1942 the orange mask being one of the biggest single advances.

 

[MattKing]

Look, Harman are bad at social media. Comically bad. And that's okay, I get the feeling they're focused on making complicated products rather than social media. It's fine.

Ilford does a much better job on social media, with about a half million followers on Instagram and a solid effort of outreach on Youtube too, with engaging videos for beginners and experts alike. Ilford leverages investment in social media to sell product. It costs them money and time but it's worth it.

Except Ilford is just a brand/trade name that Harman uses for their main product lines.
There is no longer any entity that is properly described as "Ilford". Not the black and white film producer - Harman - or the current owner of the license to use the Ilford name for non-black and white products that came out of the series of bankruptcies of the entity that once was Ilford.

 

[mshchem]

Who owns the rights to the name "Ilford" ?

If Harman rebrands everything Harman will there be Chinese HP5 and Multigrade paper being sold?

Goodness I hope not.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I think that they want to raise the blood pressure of the Photrio members and film shooting public.

 

[Arcadia4]

Elsewhere i have read the big reveal is 1st Dec, so this thread could go on a while if thats actually true...

To add to the speculation taking chemicals packaging back in house could be an option (not heard of a replacement for tetenal yet) but probably wouldn’t get as much interest as a reborn product. Relaunching under Harman would also be big news

On the investment Harman technologies recently published accounts for 2022 showed they returned to profit, with sales of film and paper up substantially and spent about £0.5m on new plant and machinery. I recall one of the works videos mentioned plans to replace control kit etc. It good to see the private owners supporting such long term investment rather than running it on a short term basis.

 

[warden]

Except Ilford is just a brand/trade name that Harman uses for their main product lines.
There is no longer any entity that is properly described as "Ilford". Not the black and white film producer - Harman - or the current owner of the license to use the Ilford name for non-black and white products that came out of the series of bankruptcies of the entity that once was Ilford.

Yeah I get all of that, which only makes it more curious. I have been engaged many times with large companies where the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, and maybe this is one of those situations where teams under the same umbrella don’t communicate. I really don’t know.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

The rebranding story is kind of absurd. It would be like Twitter rebranding as a single lett...oh wait, never mind. But seriously unless they have to they would not ditch the storied ILFORD name. They certainly wouldn't do weeks of teasers to make people 'excited' about it.

 

[MCB18]

Who knows, other than Nico, and he's not talking!!!

I know somone besides Nico who is in the know. He literally can’t say anything, besides that it’s not insignificant. He can’t even give us a date! But, now that I think about it, he has been hinting at getting access to a film he can’t talk about for months now. Possibly not related, but maybe…

 

[pentaxuser]

Elsewhere i have read the big reveal is 1st Dec, so this thread could go on a while if thats actually true...

I like it

pentaxuser

 

[KerrKid]

I’m late to the party, but all I care about is whether I can use this film in the new camera that Pentax is making for me.

 

[pentaxuser]

Harman Technology has had a Facebook and Twitter account for a number of years surely

Yes I confess to my question above to being a kind of Uriah Heep obsequious "umbleness" A lot of U.S. residents would regard this as a kind of faux humbleness and its a sign of us being divided in some cultural aspects For several years now Harman has entered the social media world and yes Harman is not a new "green behind the ears " amateur start-up company but is as Matt says the company that was started up post the Ilford bankruptcy It files its business accounts with Companies House as Harman but uses the name of the pre bankruptcy Ilford for its films and chemicals presumably for the sake of customer familiarity and because changing its product names to Harman in big letters was risky for sales I believe that Harman technology does however appear in smaller print on its products

Might it be on the verge of changing its name to Harman in big letters for everything? I cannot say. Some here seem to think that this may be the big announcement which is coming soon in which case we will see no new products but if its any consolation to those hoping for a new product to be announced I rather doubt if the big announcement is simply or even likely to be the name of Harman appearing as the prominent name on its film and chemicals

Assuming of course that there is a big announcement to come My jury is still very much out on this

pentaxuser

 

[4season]

While a number of the ideas submitted so far seem worthy enough, most wouldn't justify a teaser campaign or harmanphoto.co.uk domain. So I remain confident that we're looking at the launch of significant product(s) which are not b&w film/chemistry/paper.

 

[BHuij]

Definitely Cibachrome, right?

 

[warden]

Harman Technology has had a Facebook and Twitter account for a number of years surely

Yes I confess to my question above to being a kind of Uriah Heep obsequious "umbleness" A lot of U.S. residents would regard this as a kind of faux humbleness and its a sign of us being divided in some cultural aspects For several years now Harman has entered the social media world and yes Harman is not a new "green behind the ears " amateur start-up company but is as Matt says the company that was started up post the Ilford bankruptcy It files its business accounts with Companies House as Harman but uses the name of the pre bankruptcy Ilford for its films and chemicals presumably for the sake of customer familiarity and because changing its product names to Harman in big letters was risky for sales I believe that Harman technology does however appear in smaller print on its products

Might it be on the verge of changing its name to Harman in big letters for everything? I cannot say. Some here seem to think that this may be the big announcement which is coming soon in which case we will see no new products but if its any consolation to those hoping for a new product to be announced I rather doubt if the big announcement is simply or even likely to be the name of Harman appearing as the prominent name on its film and chemicals

Assuming of course that there is a big announcement to come My jury is still very much out on this

pentaxuser

You tend to avoid punctuation so I wasn’t sure if you were asking a question or making a statement earlier about Harman socials. It seemed from your earlier post that you might have been unaware of the content of Harman’s social media efforts (which are scarce and amateurish when compared to the Ilford brand) so I filled in some detail. No worries if you already knew the state of affairs regarding the Harman and Ilford socials, and no offense intended.

 

[MattKing]

Who owns the rights to the name "Ilford" ?

At least two different entities have a license to use the Ilford name, for different products.
Since Ilford Imaging went into bankruptcy in 2005, and Harman Technologies purchased a limited rights license, they have the license to use the Ilford name with respect to black and white film and darkroom related products.
For other products, the license to use the Ilford name was purchased by other entities in 2005, and it has passed through several hands as a result of purchases and acquisitions and subsequent other bankruptcies.
When you see "Ilford" printing paper for digital printers, that comes from "another" holder of a license to use the "Ilford" name - not Harman.

 

[mshchem]

So there is some entity (Ilford) that is receiving revenue from Harman Technologies? I am trying to say, is there someone who, if I wanted to make Ilford branded felt tip pens, or Ilford electronics (I'm reminded of Polaroid TVs and VHS tape), I could call them up and license the name Ilford???

 

[MattKing]

So there is some entity (Ilford) that is receiving revenue from Harman Technologies? I am trying to say, is there someone who, if I wanted to make Ilford branded felt tip pens, or Ilford electronics (I'm reminded of Polaroid TVs and VHS tape), I could call them up and license the name Ilford???

No - Harman bought - from the receiver or Trustee in Bankruptcy - the license to use the name for the purposes they use it for.
Just as the other entity bought the license to use the name for other uses.
I don't know whether the other entity or entities own the license to use the name for all other purposes, or for just a few other uses, or if there is a clearly identifiable entity who could sell or lease a sub-license to you for Ilford felt tip pens or ?????

 

[Dustin McAmera]

You could always just set up your shop in Ilford, and not be in the same business. I suppose there may also be people named Ilford who run (say) Ilford Solicitors.

Harman t/a Ilford Photo might still come after you if you used their typeface or colour scheme; if they could argue you were trying to benefit from seeming to be associated with them.

 

[mshchem]

I found the other Ilford, Ilford.com. A joint venture between Japanese and Australian groups. In Germany, Tecco-photo.de distributes both Ilford's ink jet and fine art products as well as Harman's Ilford AgX products.
The Harman operation seems larger??

 

[Agulliver]

If as a few have speculated Harman may end up marketing products without the Ilford name, well I wish them luck. They will need it! If that is the case they should hire a PR/Social Media executive like yesterday.

Those of us who see this as a possibility know that Harman would only rebrand if it were necessary. We all known by now that the Ilford brand is licensed to Harman, and that the licence is limited but we don't know the terms of that license. One possibility is that it's up for renewal at unfavorable terms.

Who owns the rights to the name "Ilford" ?

If Harman rebrands everything Harman will there be Chinese HP5 and Multigrade paper being sold?

Goodness I hope not.

There is absolutely nothing in even the wildest speculation to suggest that.
And up-thread I did point out that Harman also own "HP5", "FP4", and "Made in Mobberly" as trademarks.

Perhaps my neurodivergent brain assumes that people understand corporate structures, branding and related matters better than that do?

In short, the phoenix suggests something being reborn. Logic strongly suggests that this new product cannot be sold by Harman under the name "Ilford". The trademark "Harman Phoenix" has been registered by Harman Technology of Mobberly for use in manufactur of unexposed film, chemicals etc.

Ergo it could be colour film. But that seems like a pipe dream given the complexities involved in its manufacture. If Harman have perfected production of C41 film, even if they have help from Fuji, that would be astounding.


The other possibility would seem to be that they're forced into rebranding Ilford products as Harman.

I think we all agree that would be unwise unless necessary. Ilford is a long established, trusted name. Many of us will even have some sentimental connection to it. Such a rebrand wouldn't be taken lightly. Yet it remains a possibility.

 

[Don_ih]

the black on black materials they're handing out.

When they do the reveal, the phoenix will burn and come back in full colour. They're probably stuck trying to animate that.

 

[FotoD]

Ergo it could be colour film. But that seems like a pipe dream given the complexities involved in its manufacture. If Harman have perfected production of C41 film, even if they have help from Fuji, that would be astounding.

Yes. But the recent comments from Harman about making multi-million investments in new capabilities, the largest in decades, make colour film somewhat less unlikely.