Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

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koraks

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But the recent comments from Harman about making multi-million investments in new capabilities
Because I wasn't aware of the source of this, specifically, I looked it up and it's here; an 'interview' (for an interview, the 'interviewer' does an awfully lot of talking and is evidently not trained at asking meaningful questions in a productive manner - sorry to be critical, but it's really a poor interview, technically speaking) with an Ilford Marketing & Sales executive posted online on Oct 8 of this year:

The relevant section starts at around 12:20 with the question whether they have new products lined up for either 'entry level' users or 'Fine Art'. The response is this:
Yeah, we're investing, of course we're investing. I can't disclose the projects or products we're investing in, at this stage. They're not at that level we can do that, yet. But yes of course, we have an R&D department, we're investing through the R&D department. We're investing in our manufacturing as well; we're just investing multi millions into new production capabilities. That's the first time we've been able to say that in decades, literally decades. So that's all good news. There is more stuff coming through; I just can't detail it at this stage.

So that says awfully little, other than that they've been pouring money into something. This 'something' could be really new manufacturing capabilities (other product types than made before), or extension of existing capacity (depending on how you interpret 'new'). Also noteworthy is the phrase "investing through the R&D department" which leaves open the possibility that some of the product R&D actually occurs outside of Harman and is contracted out by their R&D department.
There's so many directions you could take this comment into. He's saying a lot, but not being specific on any of it, really. It's not clear if the millions are associated with new product development or process development, for instance. Smoke and mirrors, basically - which makes good sense given the context the talk happened in, the moment it happened and the person's function in the company.

In the follow-up, it becomes clear (my interpretation) that most of the investment was really aimed so far at keeping things running as they are and that they're only now starting to think about (and actually invest in) the future, which also entails attracting staff to replace older employees who are in the process of retiring.

From that talk, I get more of a feeling of a company trying to build a solid business in their existing technologies, coping with supply and materials costs issues, than a company that's exploring wild, new directions.
 

Ian Grant

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No - Harman bought - from the receiver or Trustee in Bankruptcy - the license to use the name for the purposes they use it for.
Just as the other entity bought the license to use the name for other uses.
I don't know whether the other entity or entities own the license to use the name for all other purposes, or for just a few other uses, or if there is a clearly identifiable entity who could sell or lease a sub-license to you for Ilford felt tip pens or ?????

No Ilford UK didn't go into bankruptcy, they went into voluntary administration, which is quite different. It's a way of protecting a company allowing it to continue trading while it takes necessary steps to restructure.

Ilford Imaging in Switzerland did go bankrupt a few years later, but all financial links (ownership) had been severed.

Ian
 

Agulliver

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So let's assume, for a moment, that it's neither colour film nor a rebranding exercise.

What else might it be?. Is there money in Cibachrome?

Meanwhile I'm off to make some C41 film in my lunch break. Can't be too hard
 

Caleb Hauge

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E-6 film? I recall PE saying that E-6 was in the middle of the three major color processes in terms of complexity to create the film. Kodachrome being easiest, C-41 being hardest.
 

Helge

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IMG_2001.png
 

Arcadia4

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For those willing to do a little research, the Ilford Imaging and Harman Technologies trademarks along with an others in UK are easy to look up;
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk and search by company name

The recently registered 'Harman Phoenix' Trademark, is a word (and not an image) applies to the following products;
Class 1 - Photographic film, paper and plates all being unexposed; unexposed sensitised photographic films; strips of sensitised photographic film [unexposed]; unexposed colour photographic films; unexposed cinematographic films; unexposed camera film; photographic developers; photographic sensitisers; photosensitive materials [films, unexposed]; chemical preparations and substances, all for use in processing photo-sensitive materials.

So no cameras! (Harman already has separate TMs covering many of their products, where not sub licenced below e.g. FP, HP, HP5, Perceptol etc).


Ilford Imaging Europe GmBh of Germany holds the TM to the ILFORD name, plus several related TMs such as Ilfochrome, XP, Ilfosol etc.

Harman Technology is listed as having an exclusive license to use the ILFORD name on
Class 1 products, described as; Photographic dry plates, sensitized photographic films..Prepared paper for photographic purposes.
Class 9 Photographic apparatus.

Harman also have licences for some of the other still relevant TM names like Ilfosol and XP. so quite a complicated picture..

Ilford Imaging also have the ILFORD TM rights for inkjet media, paper, clothing etc which are not sub-licenced. Interestingly the Ilfocolor TM seems to have lapsed in the UK at least.
 

koraks

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Is there money in Cibachrome?

Barely. Very few people actively shooting slide film, and very few of them are in it for the print.

A film product would make the most sense. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on a high-ish speed B&W film; a Harman version of Neopan 1600. But I'm no betting man...
 

Helge

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Barely. Very few people actively shooting slide film, and very few of them are in it for the print.

A film product would make the most sense. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on a high-ish speed B&W film; a Harman version of Neopan 1600. But I'm no betting man...

Enough people to keep E100 and Fujis film on the shelves.
 

Agulliver

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E-6 film? I recall PE saying that E-6 was in the middle of the three major color processes in terms of complexity to create the film. Kodachrome being easiest, C-41 being hardest.

Enough people to keep E100 and Fujis film on the shelves.

But is the market sufficient for a 3rd player offering E6 film? I would agree that from what PE said in the past it may not be as difficult as C41. And how many of the people buying E100 and Fuji slide film would wish to avail themselves of Cibachrome prints? It strikes me as still a niche within a niche within a niche.

I suppose it could be a Harman E6 film with Harman Labs offering processing and optional prints? Seems unlikely...but....more achievable than C41 and less drastic than a total rebrand.

But as per Ilford Photo's message, perhaps we will find out more today.
 

Roger Cole

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No Ilford UK didn't go into bankruptcy, they went into voluntary administration, which is quite different. It's a way of protecting a company allowing it to continue trading while it takes necessary steps to restructure.

Ilford Imaging in Switzerland did go bankrupt a few years later, but all financial links (ownership) had been severed.

Ian

There is a US equivalent still called "bankruptcy." If I'm reading this correctly. Chapter 7 bankruptcy in the US liquidates a company's assets, but Chapter 11 bankruptcy is for reorganization while continuing to operate, which sounds like a pretty close equivalent. So when I see "protect a company while allowing it to restructure" I think "Chapter 11 Bankruptcy."
 

Roger Cole

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But is the market sufficient for a 3rd player offering E6 film? I would agree that from what PE said in the past it may not be as difficult as C41. And how many of the people buying E100 and Fuji slide film would wish to avail themselves of Cibachrome prints? It strikes me as still a niche within a niche within a niche.

I suppose it could be a Harman E6 film with Harman Labs offering processing and optional prints? Seems unlikely...but....more achievable than C41 and less drastic than a total rebrand.

But as per Ilford Photo's message, perhaps we will find out more today.

I'd love to see Cibachrome come back and if the price were not too astronomical (even less likely than it returning at all) I'd use a fair bit of it. But realistically that's not going to happen.

I'd love to see the return of a good EI 400 E6 film too, but I doubt that as well.

We won't know until we know.
 

MattKing

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No Ilford UK didn't go into bankruptcy, they went into voluntary administration, which is quite different.

Thus my reference to "receiver". As Roger Cole posted, the terms and mechanisms differ between jurisdictions, but the general intent is relatively similar.
The result, back in 2005, was a real example of a Phoenix (Harman) arising from the ashes of Ilford Imaging.
 

MattKing

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Perhaps they are announcing the coming of Christmas. 😇
 

ant!

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Must be a Christmas Calendar then! (They had this already in the past, right? Which explains the Phoenix...)
 

Agulliver

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Must be a Christmas Calendar then! (They had this already in the past, right? Which explains the Phoenix...)
Lol ..the 12 films of Christmas. Every Ilford and Kentmere film in 135/36 plus some goodies. And about 25% cheaper than buying the films alone. My wife got me it
 

foc

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Must be a Christmas Calendar then! (They had this already in the past, right? Which explains the Phoenix...)

The Ilford/Harman advent calendar????
Hang on........that was already done, wasn't it??????
 
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