Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[4season]

Sorry, but I have watched the whole interview, and I have not heard such a statement of having "millions" invested in new products.
Maybe I missed that. So please give us the exact point in the interview with that statement, thanks.
Looking at the published balance sheets of Harman technology I also doubt their financial capability to invest "millions" (= several million Brit pounds) in a new product.

Details can be found in post #344. The info was provided by Giles Branthwaite, Sales & Marketing Director at Harman.

 

[pentaxuser]

Please read the Adox announcement when they introduced this film: They honestly said that this film was not made by themselves, but by a film manufacturer which got into insolvency. They simply bought the coating run of that company which the producer could not distribute anymore because of their insolvency.
And there is only one film manufacturer which got into insolvency recently: InovisCoat. So the origin of Color Mission is clear.
Adox cannot make a competitive C41 film by themselves. We have to be realistic.

What be realistic and spoil all our fun!

pentaxuser

 

[Film-Niko]

Details can be found in post #344. The info was provided by Giles Branthwaite, Sales & Marketing Director at Harman.

In that post there is only the link to the interview. And as I've written above, I've seen that whole interview.
But in the whole interview I have not found any statement concerning a "millions of pounds" investment in new, coming product(s).

 

[FotoD]

But what we actually do know so far from Harman (via interview on Nico's Photography Show) is that they have spent "millions" towards the production of undisclosed product(s), and that it's their largest such expenditure in decades. Perhaps it cannot be sold under the Ilford name, which could explain the existence of harmanphoto.co.uk.

That's interesting. Maybe it is colour film after all, if they're investing multi-millions into new production?

 

[pentaxuser]

Harman have gone to quite some considerable effort, and honestly the notion that this is a fake or hoax is conspiracy theory level. There's a digital "paper trail" leading right to the doors of head office at Mobberly.

Yes I admit that after at least 4 "government" vaccinations for Covid I am feeling more conspiratorial about everything . I think the whole vaccination programme may be a ruse for implanting a micro-chip into my brain but I admit I have no proof. However what I cannot work out is what the considerable effort that Harman has gone to. It or somebody has done 2 things, namely produce a picture of a Phoenix like bird and a statement " It is coming soon" It has then apparently chosen Nico and Analogue Wonderland to receive some "information" which of course neither can speak about until the announcement

As far as the information to 2 parties is concerned which must not be revealed until Harman is ready, doesn't it beg the question why tell more parties than it needs to when those parties can say no more than we have already been told? Once Harman is ready to make the announcement then I presume it will not rely on those 2 parties only to tell us. I'd presume that it will orchestrate the "fanfare" and then the 2 much smaller voices will hardly matter, will they ?


What does the digital paper trail consist of? A picture from a seemingly genuine Harman Photo So is none of that possible from a third party. People get fooled every day into clicking into "genuine" bank websites, don't they

So can you say that none of what we have seen so far from allegedly Harman cannot possibly be from any other third party?

If it is all genuinely Harman then it just seems so strange in terms of what we are used to seeing from Harman and seems to be no less strange when I compare it to the very recent normal behaviour from the Harman exec that Nico interviewed in the video posted at Photopia 2023

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

@pentaxuser I've explained the digital paper trail leading to Harman in Mobberly at least three times in the thread. I really don't feel that trotting out the exact same information a fourth time does anyone any favours

 

[logan2z]

Sorry, but I have watched the whole interview, and I have not heard such a statement of having "millions" invested in new products.
Maybe I missed that. So please give us the exact point in the interview with that statement, thanks.
Looking at the published balance sheets of Harman technology I also doubt their financial capability to invest "millions" (= several million Brit pounds) in a new product.

I think the section being referred to starts at 12:25 into the interview. In response to a question from the interviewer, the Ilford representative said that Ilford are 'investing multi-millions into new production capabilities'. Just before that they also mentioned that they are investing in new products that can't be disclosed at this time, but they didn't specifically say that those new products were getting millions of dollars of investment.

 

[Film-Niko]

I think the section being referred to starts at 12:25 into the interview. In response to a question from the interviewer, the Ilford representative said that Ilford are 'investing multi-millions into new production capabilities'. Just before that they also mentioned that they are investing in new products that can't be disclosed at this time, but they didn't specifically say that those new products were getting millions of dollars of investment.

Thanks, I've been aware of that part.
But I think here is a big misunderstanding: The factory in Mobberley is quite a big one (and also an older one), and you need regular significant investments just to keep it running: Repairing machines, installing new machinery when the old one is completely worn out, training of new, young engineers, cost reduction and energy saving investments, marketing.....and so on.
And Giles also said that they are preparing for general continued growth. So investments have to be made at bottleneck points to increase production in coming years.
So for me his statements are very clear that Harman is generally investing in the factory just to make it 'future-proof' and can handle hopefully continued demand growth.
He is not saying their investment is for a single 'magic' new product type.

 

[pentaxuser]

OK It would have done me a favour as you have contributed to this thread on numerous occasions and it is now a long thread stretching to 16 pages but can I make it simpler and ask you to respond to the question I asked as follows:

So can you say that none of what we have seen so far from allegedly Harman cannot possibly be from any other third party?

There may be a answer to the effect that it is impossible for a third party to have done what they have done unless they were in fact Harman. If so fine but I am curious as to what it may be As someone who admittedly isn't an expert in what is and isn't possible with expert computer skills I don't know. All I can go on is that there didn't look to be anything in what I saw being done that would be impossible for a third party to imitate

If you know of something that prevents an outside party from doing what has been dome then tell me in as simple terms as possible if you can what that was

pentaxuser

 

[Supercine]

OK It would have done me a favour as you have contributed to this thread on numerous occasions and it is now a long thread stretching to 16 pages but can I make it simpler and ask you to respond to the question I asked as follows:

So can you say that none of what we have seen so far from allegedly Harman cannot possibly be from any other third party?

There may be a answer to the effect that it is impossible for a third party to have done what they have done unless they were in fact Harman. If so fine but I am curious as to what it may be As someone who admittedly isn't an expert in what is and isn't possible with expert computer skills I don't know. All I can go on is that there didn't look to be anything in what I saw being done that would be impossible for a third party to imitate

If you know of something that prevents an outside party from doing what has been dome then tell me in as simple terms as possible if you can what that was

pentaxuser

There is a new website set up by Harman, a direct mail campaign to industry insiders, a instagram page from Harman, a Facebook page from Harman and a twitter account from Harman. Certain photography experts have commented on it. What more do you want? If your looking for conspiratorial holes then I think you have too much time on your hands…

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

There is a new website set up by Harman, a direct mail campaign to industry insiders, a instagram page from Harman, a Facebook page from Harman and a twitter account from Harman. Certain photography experts have commented on it. What more do you want? If your looking for conspiratorial holes then I think you have too much time on your hands…

+Aleph nought

 

[koraks]

And again, three sensitized layers for “slow” film is possible.

I don't think any C41 film with 3 sensitized layers has been manufactured, ever, outside perhaps a lab setting.
A functional C41 film that has any chance in the market will have 9 sensitized color layers at least and at least a handful of auxiliary layers.
Give us the name of at least one C41 color film, in current production or defunct, that has just 3 sensitized layers.

The multilayer approach is not there so much for speed. It's mostly there for linearity. It's not possible to manufacture a decently linear C41 film that doesn't cross over like a mother f*** with just a single sensitized layer. It's possible with paper because its curve is enormously steep. But for a C41 film, this isn't usable since it won't be able to deal with even a modest SBR, let alone a typical sunny outdoor shot.

I'd be mightily impressed if Ilford managed to get to a competitive C41 color film from where they were a few years ago by investing just 'millions' and not 'tens of millions'. Not saying it isn't possible. But it's a gargantuan task under the conditions a business like theirs operates.

 

[Agulliver]

The postcard and other unidentified objects has been sent to a number of dealers and influencers. One of whom was pictured AT HARMAN'S HQ in Mobberly.

But to me, The most important thing is that "Harman Phoenix" trademark was registered for Harman Technology Limited, Mobberly by an IPO that is one of the top trademark attorneys in the UK. The digital trail literally leads to Harman's office door.

So if someone has setup an elaborate ruse....they've not only fooled several retailers who have longstanding dealings with Harman, and influencers who have prior relationships with Harman, and somehow got one of said people to pose at Harman Mobberly without arousing the suspicions of him or of Harman......but they've also fooled the country's foremost trademark attorneys and the trademark office. And in doing so they've paid to have the postcards designed (graphic design doesn't come cheap) and printed, mailed out to the various people, a whole new website and web hosting, and at least three social media accounts.

What more do you want?

Frankly I don't like constantly repeating myself and I doubt any other posters here really appreciate me or anyone else making exactly the same points over and over again. Choose not to believe the available evidence or my posting of it if you so wish. Meanwhile, I am off to take some photos.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

... just what a stooge of the conspiracy would say, and I can tell you that as unfounded speculation.

 

[Helge]

Which companies in addition to the ones I mentioned managed to successfully manufacture C41 or E6 films? It's always possible I missed one out.

May I ask who has made a respectable C41 film with three layers? Adox Color Mission is a work in progress and has taken them several years to get where they are. If we are to believe that Harman took delivery of some equipment capable of coating colour film just this year, and have already managed to reach a point where they are ready to mass produce a colour film for general sale.....that's really quite some feat....a feat never before achieved in the history of photography. I know the guys at Harman are some of the best in the business....but that's pushing it.

You can "shoot" anything if your meaning is you're shooting a short video about the subject. The fact is, we don't know what Expired Film Club meant by shooting something exciting. I'd counter argue that Harman working on colour film in secret is also close to zero. Though not impossible.

Orwo, Lucky, Polaroid, Efke, ERA, Forte, Fuda, Ilford (Super HR) all made colour negative film at one point or another. And I’m sure a few others.

Fuji 200 and 400 film has three main colour layers that are split into three sublayers for speed

A 100 or slower speed film would be able to make do with a mixed crystal emulsion leaning into mono disperse. It would be contrasty but sharp (like most slower film).
I’m not able to find data for films that layered like that right now, but I’m certain I’ve seen diagrams in literature.

 

[Helge]

Exactly. The level of “gimme gimme” impatience by some, on display in this thread is mind boggling. And mark my words, when the reveal does happen, those same people will loudly express their immense disappointment that Harman didn’t deliver their desired flavor of Big Magic. (and declaring the company a failure as a result) This was the response from some people when Ilford introduced Ortho Plus in roll formats!

Honestly. You’d think that a group of analog photographers understood (and valued) anticipation!

It shows a bad sense of timing. Drawn out circus shows, for something that isn’t at least semi revolutionary displays little understanding of your audience.

It’s been almost three weeks.
Such a campaign should start two or three days before, at most a week.
Now people are just annoyed at the massive oversell.

 

[Helge]

Please read the Adox announcement when they introduced this film: They honestly said that this film was not made by themselves, but by a film manufacturer which got into insolvency. They simply bought the coating run of that company which the producer could not distribute anymore because of their insolvency.
And there is only one film manufacturer which got into insolvency recently: InovisCoat. So the origin of Color Mission is clear.
Adox cannot make a competitive C41 film by themselves. We have to be realistic.

As I understood it they specified the film and emulsion and had InovisCoat do the physical part. And Adox meanwhile acquired their own colour capable coating machines.

 

[warden]

It’s been almost three weeks.

Actually tomorrow it will be a month since they updated their Facebook page with the black "Coming Soon" graphic. It's odd for sure, but only 37 people follow them there anyway so it hardly matters.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

It does seem like it's taking a very long time for this announcement to roll out. I feel like these things should go no longer than 2 weeks.

I hold out some hope it's cibachrome. Yeah it's not going to be super common to enlarge slide film OTOH, their other Harman product is direct pos B&W which is largely shot in camera. Cibachrome can also be shot in camera. In fact one of my favorite analog photographers does just that, to this day. (He must have a stockpile)

https://fraenkelgallery.com/artists/richard-learoyd

If we can put a man on the moon I presume we can reformulate some chemistry to be less toxic.

I put the likelyhood of this being the case at about 20% of course. Especially with the black on black materials they're handing out. OTOH the very high gloss Phoenix maybe is evocative of that unique cibachrome paper surface.

Unless it's Patterson Actutol what the heck else would 'rise from the ashes'? It's NOT going to be Kentmere or Ilford branded.

 

[pentaxuser]

There is a new website set up by Harman, a direct mail campaign to industry insiders, a instagram page from Harman, a Facebook page from Harman and a twitter account from Harman. Certain photography experts have commented on it. What more do you want? If your looking for conspiratorial holes then I think you have too much time on your hands…

Yes but are all these things you mention a result of the Phoenix announcement in the last couple of weeks? Harman Technology has had a Facebook and Twitter account for a number of years surely

What more do I want? Well some specific evidence in relation to this specific Phoenix announcement might help. By the way a few others here are somewhat sceptical as well or so it seems to me but I suppose "too much time on your hands" could be levelled against any contributor to this thread or any other in every case that said contributor makes any points that anyone else does not agree with

pentaxuser

... just what a stooge of the conspiracy would say, and I can tell you that as unfounded speculation.

pentaxuser

 

[4season]

Thanks, I've been aware of that part.
But I think here is a big misunderstanding: The factory in Mobberley is quite a big one (and also an older one), and you need regular significant investments just to keep it running: Repairing machines, installing new machinery when the old one is completely worn out, training of new, young engineers, cost reduction and energy saving investments, marketing.....and so on.
And Giles also said that they are preparing for general continued growth. So investments have to be made at bottleneck points to increase production in coming years.
So for me his statements are very clear that Harman is generally investing in the factory just to make it 'future-proof' and can handle hopefully continued demand growth.
He is not saying their investment is for a single 'magic' new product type.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bother with this mystery campaign + new web site for anything short of a significant new product. And if it were b&w film, paper or chemistry, they could sell it under the Ilford brand.

 

[Helge]

I don't think any C41 film with 3 sensitized layers has been manufactured, ever, outside perhaps a lab setting.
A functional C41 film that has any chance in the market will have 9 sensitized color layers at least and at least a handful of auxiliary layers.
Give us the name of at least one C41 color film, in current production or defunct, that has just 3 sensitized layers.

The multilayer approach is not there so much for speed. It's mostly there for linearity. It's not possible to manufacture a decently linear C41 film that doesn't cross over like a mother f*** with just a single sensitized layer. It's possible with paper because its curve is enormously steep. But for a C41 film, this isn't usable since it won't be able to deal with even a modest SBR, let alone a typical sunny outdoor shot.

I'd be mightily impressed if Ilford managed to get to a competitive C41 color film from where they were a few years ago by investing just 'millions' and not 'tens of millions'. Not saying it isn't possible. But it's a gargantuan task under the conditions a business like theirs operates.

Sorry, didn’t refresh and hence didn’t see this till now.
Speed and linearity is not divorced with film.

I’m not about to go down a rabbit hole of an hours long search, that would no doubt be interesting. I’m just quite certain I saw a diagram and crossection of a C-41 film some years back, that had tree main layers.
It’s always possible that I might misremember or have misunderstood of course.

Edit. For what it’s worth, Popular photography Jan 89 has a test of Ektar 25 where it’s revealed to have five active layers. One tabular/cubic blue, hi/lo speed tabular green and hi/lo speed cubic red.
And that is a flagship film.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

So tiring how many film companies do this.

Hope it's something to do with colour or I will yawn.

 

[mshchem]

Dr. Strangelove
written by Peter George, Stanley Kubrick & Terry Southern
General Ripper: Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women...women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.

 

[MattKing]

Perhaps their big announcement is that they are buying the land and buildings that their production facilities are located in, rather than depending on renewals of their existing medium term (25 years????) lease.