Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[pbromaghin]

Funny, I remember last July when I suggested, in a different context, that Harman could make a C-41 film, I was lectured on its utter impossibility.

 

[BrianShaw]

You could have been prophetic, and we all know that prophets are not welcome on internet photography forums.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

"it offers something different to all their existing films."

Must be a colour film, then. If it is I say, good on ya Harman!

 

[koraks]

Funny, I remember last July when I suggested, in a different context, that Harman could make a C-41 film, I was lectured on its utter impossibility.

I'd still do that. In fact, I did, in this thread (it just wasn't you who suggested it). Read back, my arguments why I still find it a long shot are there.

 

[Agulliver]

It will be an astonishing and unique achievement in the history of the photography industry if Harman have managed to perfect C41 colour film from a position just five years ago where they had none of the equipment nor experience to do so...and where in the industry's heyday just five large companies had ever mastered production of C41 film.

But the more this goes on, and as evidence trickles through, the more I am prepared to be astonished.

 

[koraks]

I am prepared to be astonished

Certainly. I'd gladly be proven wrong.

 

[cerber0s]

But the more this goes on, and as evidence trickles through, the more I am prepared to be astonished.

Certainly. I'd gladly be proven wrong.

What are the chances that they found, and bought, a more or less finished production facility?

 

[koraks]

What are the chances that they found, and bought, a more or less finished production facility?

Zero. Not just "next to zero", but an absolute, firm zero.
If they have acquired the capability to manufacture C41 film, they must have built most of it from the ground up.
I've explained in one of my earlier posts in this thread that a production facility for film is not something you box up and unwrap in a new location. It's tightly integrated with the building.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

What’s great about this thread is that no matter what happens, someone is going to eat crow on friday the first.

A Dutch star-chef just started recently to serve crow. It seems to be quite common in Scotland.

 

[Lachlan Young]

If they have acquired the capability to manufacture C41 film, they must have built most of it from the ground up.

They've been manufacturing C-41 film for decades. The main issue will have been a coating head capable of delivering more than 6 layers per pass and specific expertise relating to layer building for colour. Delta emulsion technology and XP2 (in particular) should really be seen as MVP's that were originally intended to be made en route to colour materials.

 

[koraks]

They've been manufacturing C-41 film for decades.

Yes, I should have made color explicit. Sorry. One of the manufacturing challenges indeed is the number of layers. I think the emulsion technology itself and working out various complex issues related to it would be rather challenging jut as well. Some of the technology acquired in existing silver halide and chromogenic products carry over into color, but some of it is really unique. It's something that seems to be overlooked by many, with most posters who say something about the challenges seeming to focus solely on the coating process. There's so much more technology that goes into a (color) film.

 

[cerber0s]

Zero. Not just "next to zero", but an absolute, firm zero.
If they have acquired the capability to manufacture C41 film, they must have built most of it from the ground up.
I've explained in one of my earlier posts in this thread that a production facility for film is not something you box up and unwrap in a new location. It's tightly integrated with the building.

Yea, I figured the building was included in the word ”facility”. What happened tobyhe old Agfa/AgfaPhoto facilities in Europe?

 

[koraks]

Yea, I figured the building was included in the word ”facility”. What happened tobyhe old Agfa/AgfaPhoto facilities in Europe?

AFAIK tore down and scrapped. Just like the European FUJIFILM color film coating plant.

 

[cerber0s]

AFAIK tore down and scrapped. Just like the European FUJIFILM color film coating plant.

The old forgotten Agfa factory, rediscovered by Harman and resurrected under the Phoenix logo. Ok, far fetched, but it would make a cool story.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

Stranger still: before the silver in the Mobberley Mine ran out, they broke through into ancient dwarvish film-factory workings, where the dwarves of Durin's clan would grind up many-coloured gemstones to make a legendary emulsion. But significant technical difficulties remain, not least the Balrog. Fly, you fools!


(sorry - this was dangerously close to being a troll post)

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

I've been noticing a few posts deleted for being "off topic". How can anything manage to be off topic in this thread? Or maybe this post of mine is.

I do still think POP is a candidate; and colour negative film wouldn't excite me in the least.

 

[cerber0s]

Photographer Marcus Mcadam based in Skye (Scotland) posted a picture of his 35mm film camera stating it contains a new film from Harman he’d been sent a couple of rolls to test.

‘As you can see, I’m getting ready to shoot a few environmental portraits of a gamekeeper, to see how it handles the tones and textures of the scene’.

He covers film / analog photography in the ‘photography show‘ on youtube, but has been around long enough to remember when film was photography.

Or it’s a resurrected Polaroid instant film. He never specifically referred to the depicted camera, just “inside this camera”, which could mean the camera he was using to take the photo of the camera…

I’ll put on my tinfoil hat and go hide now.

 

[koraks]

I've been noticing a few posts deleted for being "off topic". How can anything manage to be off topic in this thread?

In this case, it related to attempts to divert the thread to the people and the interactions in this thread instead of the subject matter. We're cautious in this sense especially because this thread was already shut down once because things were getting heated. As to posts being off-topic - we generally have exceedingly flexible views as to what constitutes "the topic"!

 

[Lachlan Young]

Yes, I should have made color explicit. Sorry. One of the manufacturing challenges indeed is the number of layers. I think the emulsion technology itself and working out various complex issues related to it would be rather challenging jut as well. Some of the technology acquired in existing silver halide and chromogenic products carry over into color, but some of it is really unique. It's something that seems to be overlooked by many, with most posters who say something about the challenges seeming to focus solely on the coating process. There's so much more technology that goes into a (color) film.

I think we're also forgetting that (unlike other operations), Ilford would not be going from a standing start and already has significant institutional knowledge about key elements relating to scavengers, dye ballasting etc - what they will have lacked is the specific knowledge for integrating extant capabilities into a colour material - and I would add that that was always the effective message of their corporate response - to the effect of 'not right now, we lack specific knowledge [from recall, they never said a lack of capacity in terms of manufacturing components or finished product], but if the right people happened to become available...' That they have significant experience with CD4 couplers also counts very strongly against it being anything other than a colour neg stock if it is indeed a colour film. I think we often underestimate Ilford's abilities in areas like controlled crystal growth technology precisely because they don't make colour products.

Whatever it is is quite likely towards the upper end of the 100-400 range, and probably isn't a deep IR sensitised B&W material.

 

[bfilm]

Don't forget the latest Harman Photo promotional image of the outline or silhouette of a 135 format roll of film. I don't think there is any question at this point that it is a new 135 film. Perhaps to be followed by 120 format. And as others have pointed out, it makes little sense for them to create a new black and white film outside of Ilford Photo. I think the remaining question is color negative or color reversal. And perhaps also a question of high-grade accurate film or novelty film. Despite the difficulty in manufacturing good color film, I am sure a company like Harman could figure it out, if they have the resources to put towards it.

 

[koraks]

I think we often underestimate Ilford's abilities in areas like controlled crystal growth technology precisely because they don't make colour products.

Sure, but my point is that a color emulsion is about so much more than controlled crystal growth. You're dealing with color filtering layers, color crossover and scavengers, color balance during processing, dye masking - there's a lot going on there that simply isn't part of any B&W emulsion. I agree that Harman's competence should not be underestimated, but I caution against overestimating it at the same time.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Sure, but my point is that a color emulsion is about so much more than controlled crystal growth. You're dealing with color filtering layers, color crossover and scavengers, color balance during processing, dye masking - there's a lot going on there that simply isn't part of any B&W emulsion. I agree that Harman's competence should not be underestimated, but I caution against overestimating it at the same time.

I think you're also forgetting that not all Ilford colour research was at Marly. And it's not lack of knowledge about the above, it's the very specific hands-on know-how needed to translate that industry-standard knowledge into manufacturable/ saleable product that Ilford had/ has previously lacked. 18-20 months from the arrival of that knowledge to getting the product in the market would be about right.

 

[koraks]

Well, perhaps. I think come 1 December, we'll see. And if they managed this, I will be impressed for sure. It has always seemed like an unlikely scenario to me given the complexities involved.

Or, I might say "I hope you're right". As I've said before, another manufacturer of a functional C41 color film would be very welcome. It's clear present demand is not being met very well.

PS: the work in Marly AFAIK pertained only to dye destruction technology. Ilford's forays in E6 and CN technology were back in the 1960s, so I wonder how much currently relevant knowledge for a C41 color product would exist at Harman. Unless they've accumulated it recently, of course. There's always that possibility.

 

[bfilm]

If Harman does start manufacturing high-grade color film, perhaps one interesting possibility to consider is if they could become a partner for Fujifilm for color negative film instead of Kodak, like Harman does now for Fujifilm black and white film. Personally, I hope Fujifilm returns to manufacturing more film in Japan again, but it might be more interesting for them to expand this Harman collaboration than continue the Kodak collaboration.

Pentax has said that they are discussing with the major film manufacturers the current and potential future status of film manufacturing and availability in their research for possible new film cameras. I am very interested to know what has been said in these discussions, particularly with Fujifilm. It would be nice to have Kodak, Fujifilm, and Harman all manufacturing their own color and black and white films.

 

[Flighter]

The below is a summary of employee numbers (Engaged in R&D and total number of employees) and fixed asset additions to the two categories of 'assets under construction' and 'plant and machinery' disclosed in the Harman Technology accounts for the last 10 years. Of note is that in 2021 there was a reclassification from 'assets under construction' to 'computer systems' of £644,502.

Year ended	R&D e'ees	Total e'ees	Assets under construction	Plant & machinery
31/12/22	21	197	£540,467	£0
31/12/21	23	192	£709,089	£278,011
31/12/20	23	201	£224,278	£0
31/12/19	23	198	£732,682	£0
31/12/18	22	192	£390,225	£0
31/12/17	20	181	£214,798	£0
31/12/16	19	181	£175,147	£0
31/12/15	23	197	£159,302	£0
31/12/14	23	202	£244,037	£0
31/12/13	24	210	£230,168	£161,971