Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[mshchem]

Swan never had a K-Lab. As far as I know, the last one in use was at Dwayne's Photo in Kansas. I don't keep track of the machines, but recall reading that most were scrapped. No reason to keep one, it seems, when the film disappeared. Although someone (in Oz?) did try processing the stuff, perhaps with a reconstituted one. Use the Google machine, with "sitehotrio.com" in its search field, to find out more. Knock yourself out! I only brought it up because someone finally "went there" about Kodachrome, and there didn't seem to be anything else worth commenting on in this "ultimate speculation" thread.

IT'S NEVER OVER UNTIL WE SAY IT'S OVER! K135-36!!!

 

[BobD]

Could it be something like this, I wonder?

 

[Agulliver]

I really don't think it can be anything but colour film now, more than likely C41 but E6 is a possibility. The thing that puts me to C41 is that the gaps Kodak cannot fill reliably are Color Plus, Gold and Ultramax. The amateur C41 films, which are in such demand by the demographic this campaign is aimed at. Constant reminders, *this is not aimed at us*.

A 200 and/or 400 C41 film of decent quality would be the most likely way to recoup a large investment too. The influencers chosen to help market this all seem to be the kinds of photographers who shoot 35mm C41 film for the most part, with the occasional toe in the B&W water. If Harman can produce something of similar quality to Color Plus and sell it at the same price or a bit lower, then they're automatically onto a winner. They also have the distribution channels to get the stuff out there more efficiently than Kodak does. I could totally see myself stocking up on Harman C41 film at my local camera shop rather than going online for colour film, if the price is right.

Harman's profits are relatively stable but are hardly large, and the profit margin on the B&W film products isn't high. They must be confident they can make back what they've invested in this new venture. It's not some super-niche product. It's going to be something Harman believe the majority of film photographers want to use.

 

[tykos]

Harman's profits are relatively stable but are hardly large, and the profit margin on the B&W film products isn't high. They must be confident they can make back what they've invested in this new venture. It's not some super-niche product. It's going to be something Harman believe the majority of film photographers want to use.

they said they invested millions in production thanks to their profits in the last years: these profits may be "hardly large", but seem to be decent nonetheless...

 

[Agulliver]

they said they invested millions in production thanks to their profits in the last years: these profits may be "hardly large", but seem to be decent nonetheless...

And they further said that was something they'd not been able to do in "decades". Publicly available documents show that Harman Technology's operating profit last year were £3.46 million on a turnover of over £28.5 million, up from 1.57 million in 2021 on a turnover of £22.3 million. It also shows that risks taken included purchasing US$2 million of silver nitrate. It also shows that they have fixed assets worth approx £2.7 million, up only £100k from 2021. So they've bought $2m of silver nitrate, but there's no hard evidence they've bought or built a new coating machine.

2020 was, of course, a difficult year with only half a million£ gross profit. Prior to the pandemic in 2018 and 2019 operating profits were of the order of £2.5-£3m per year.

This paints a picture of a company doing pretty well, it's profitable, and it's profits are stable. But it's not a company in a position to throw even £5 million at investing in new machinery without taking out a loan - which they do not appear to have done. The US$2m on silver nitrate was noted specifically as a risk factor in their annual accounts. This is double what they were spending in 2019 on silver nitrate, because of the fluctuating price of silver and it's compounds. So, note well those who complain about film prices.

If someone has time they could dive deeper into Harman's accounts. It seems that Pemberstone manage the business well, But they're not the size of company who can invest "millions" without help. Unless the "millions" refers to the silver nitrate and a few hundred thousand on keeping the equpiment up to date. Whether that could include adapting the coater to make it suitable for colour film......is way beyond my knowledge scope.

 

[Agulliver]

Slight update, on the Harman Photo Facebook page someone has expressed disappointment that this appears to be 35mm as they were hoping for 120 and sheet film.

Harman's response is "good things come in small parcels "

So this might be a clue that, for now at least, it's only 35mm film. Which makes commercial sense. That is where, by far, the biggest market is.

 

[brbo]

@harmanphoto also now stated it's not a 'rerolled film from another company'.

 

[Agulliver]

@harmanphoto also now stated it's not a 'rerolled film from another company'.

Yep, I think I've just seen the same post. It was in response to someone saying "please just tell me that it's not rerolled film from another company".

So it's not simply rerolled Kodak film. But it could still possibly be coated by Kodak, depending on your definition of "no colabs". Though I think that would be a collaboration.

Note that today they've also specifically said it's not Cibachrome.

 

[npl]

Bet : Harman Phoenix 400D. Or Harman Phoenix 200

35mm C41 color film, of course.

 

[BrianShaw]

…

Harman's response is "good things come in small parcels "

…

110? Anything in110…

126? Anything in 126…

 

[pentaxuser]

@harmanphoto also now stated it's not a 'rerolled film from another company'.

So it is definitely not a "new" film. It is a real new film

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

110? Anything in110…

126? Anything in 126…

I could use 110

 

[bfilm]

Having someone else coat film for you is definitely a collaboration. If the film is coated by anyone besides Harman it would be completely unexciting for a company like Harman, and then also wouldn't provide any truly broadened scope for color film manufacturing capability worldwide. But I expect this is a real Harman-made film.

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

110? Anything in110…

126? Anything in 126…

It's beginng to sound like an updated microfiche history of the firm.

 

[brbo]

I could use 110

Seeing that you like ColorPlus 200 very much, Lomography Tiger 200 is your poison.


Anyway, I'm still quite puzzled by the obvious lack of @ilfordphoto activity on this. They don't follow @harmanphoto.

I mean, there was nothing stopping them from announcing the new product (range) on a channel with immensely bigger reach. As if they want this new film not to be associated with anything that Ilford stands for.

 

[analogwisdom]

Slight update, on the Harman Photo Facebook page someone has expressed disappointment that this appears to be 35mm as they were hoping for 120 and sheet film.

Harman's response is "good things come in small parcels "

So this might be a clue that, for now at least, it's only 35mm film. Which makes commercial sense. That is where, by far, the biggest market is.

If this is in fact a color film, something is better than nothing. I don't shoot 35mm, but I will be happy to see it, and will wait patiently to see if it comes to any larger formats.

 

[mshchem]

I really don't think it can be anything but colour film now, more than likely C41 but E6 is a possibility. The thing that puts me to C41 is that the gaps Kodak cannot fill reliably are Color Plus, Gold and Ultramax. The amateur C41 films, which are in such demand by the demographic this campaign is aimed at. Constant reminders, *this is not aimed at us*.

A 200 and/or 400 C41 film of decent quality would be the most likely way to recoup a large investment too. The influencers chosen to help market this all seem to be the kinds of photographers who shoot 35mm C41 film for the most part, with the occasional toe in the B&W water. If Harman can produce something of similar quality to Color Plus and sell it at the same price or a bit lower, then they're automatically onto a winner. They also have the distribution channels to get the stuff out there more efficiently than Kodak does. I could totally see myself stocking up on Harman C41 film at my local camera shop rather than going online for colour film, if the price is right.

Harman's profits are relatively stable but are hardly large, and the profit margin on the B&W film products isn't high. They must be confident they can make back what they've invested in this new venture. It's not some super-niche product. It's going to be something Harman believe the majority of film photographers want to use.

Very well said. I think it's got to be something that everyone can use, and be profitable.

 

[Agulliver]

Seeing that you like ColorPlus 200 very much, Lomography Tiger 200 is your poison.


Anyway, I'm still quite puzzled by the obvious lack of @ilfordphoto activity on this. They don't follow @harmanphoto.

I mean, there was nothing stopping them from announcing the new product (range) on a channel with immensely bigger reach. As if they want this new film not to be associated with anything that Ilford stands for.

It looks very much like Ilford Photo cannot associate themselves with colour film or chemicals. So Harman Photo is hoping to achieve great reach by the dealers and influencers they've sent the product to publicising it for them.

I do occasionally use Tiger 110 film. It's not the same as Color Plus but it's decent enough for handing out with cameras at parties/celebrations. Yes, I like Color Plus. Shoot me.

 

[Agulliver]

If this is in fact a color film, something is better than nothing. I don't shoot 35mm, but I will be happy to see it, and will wait patiently to see if it comes to any larger formats.

If it's a success and photographers like it for the results they get and not just because of it's price point or other factors....it could be that in time Harman are able to offer it in other formats. But it probably makes sense to plough what research money they have into 35mm and recoup those costs first.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Kodachrome in APS format ?!

 

[brbo]

It looks very much like Ilford Photo cannot associate themselves with colour film or chemicals. So Harman Photo is hoping to achieve great reach by the dealers and influencers they've sent the product to publicising it for them.

Harman, which operates the @ilfordphoto account, can't promote Harman products? That is odd. Who can prevent them doing that?

I do occasionally use Tiger 110 film. It's not the same as Color Plus but it's decent enough for handing out with cameras at parties/celebrations. Yes, I like Color Plus. Shoot me.

No reason to shoot you, I just made a quick comment since I recently shot Gold 200 vs Tiger 200 side-by-side I observed similar differences as with ColorPlus 200 (except grain - but I need to do a higher resolution scan to verify that). Shows that no good deed goes unpunished!

 

[Mark J]

Kodachrome in APS format ?!

Please don't say 'Kodachrome' - it makes me sad every time I see the word.

 

[MattKing]

It looks very much like Ilford Photo cannot associate themselves with colour film or chemicals. So Harman Photo is hoping to achieve great reach by the dealers and influencers they've sent the product to publicising it for them.

I think by this you are saying that Harman are not permitted by the terms of their license to use the name "Ilford" with respect to any business respecting colour film or colour chemicals or colour paper.
Which I agree with.
"Ilford Photo" is a trade name, not a legal name.
Ilford Imaging is the other entity - it is the one whose rights include the right to use "Ilford" with respect to colour products.
This is a screenshot of their website:

 

[Arcadia4]

Well, one of our readers has now published a video sorry 'reel' (with a starring role for @pentaxuser ) which aims to join some of the dots..




Interestingly, it got a 'like' from the darkroom, organising the US launch 'event'.

 

[snusmumriken]

I think by this you are saying that Harman are not permitted by the terms of their license to use the name "Ilford" with respect to any business respecting colour film or colour chemicals or colour paper.
Which I agree with.
"Ilford Photo" is a trade name, not a legal name.
Ilford Imaging is the other entity - it is the one whose rights include the right to use "Ilford" with respect to colour products.
This is a screenshot of their website:
View attachment 353430

I thought this was a leg-pull, Matt, but have followed it up. I'm not clear: are these things already available, or are they part of what is to be launched shortly? And what about this: