Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[Helge]

Then you have understood that wrong.



Acquiring a coating machine and producing a competetive color film are two completely different things.
Look at InovisCoat: Two insolvencies since their foundation (the second still going on....), and they needed more than a decade to make a decent color film like that one now being sold as Color Mission. And that despite the fact that they started with very experienced former Agfa engineers and original Agfa machinery.
Second example: Film Ferrania. For almost ten years now they have all the needed machinery, but still no color film......
You are underestimating the difficulties of color film production.

Well, I am ever so sorry.

 

[MattKing]

But their pinhole cameras are also branded as Harman, so that can't be the reason I think.

Also from B&H.
The decision to brand items as Harman may be a choice, not a necessity.

 

[4season]

Harman will be missing the boat if they don't go all-in with meta-goods, including crypto, NFTs, and virtual film, said no one.

I've a hunch that some folks are underestimating what they are capable of.

 

[AnselMortensen]

So....
What's the over/under on the number of posts this thread will have at 11:59PM November 30th?

 

[Don_ih]

So....
What's the over/under on the number of posts this thread will have at 11:59PM November 30th?

I'm actually putting my money of the thread being locked waaaaaaaaay before then.

 

[mshchem]

LED Variable Contrast Enlarger Head for various enlargers....

That would be amazing

 

[pentaxuser]

I've a hunch that some folks are underestimating what they are capable of.

This sounds like the kind of thing that Sherlock Holmes would say about the dastardly Professor Moriarty

pentaxuser

 

[Helge]

QFT! People on this forum will be more in tune, but I have to constantly remind my fellow 20-somethings in real life that, like myself, have only recently got into film photography about this. Imaging is a fraction of Fuji's revenue, and of that fraction, traditional film is an even tinier fraction. Hell, Instax alone generates more revenue than the entire digital camera part of imaging (this includes every digital camera and lens they make).

If Fuji is still coating and confectioning traditional film (who really knows at this point), it truly is a miracle. I don't know the logistics and cost of doing something like shutting a factory down, but I know that whatever money they make from traditional film is a literal drop in the ocean that is their revenue. As far as Fuji is concerned, the "Film Rebirth/Resurgence" (don't get me started on that) doesn't matter at all.

Imaging as such including digital and Instax is a significant part of the market for FF.
Even if the revenue is not huge,
The market is consistent and loyal.
Fuji has a close to monopoly on E6 and instant film. And their cameras and lenses are regarded on par with the best.
The other markets are filled with fluff and buzz and is in shark infested waters.

 

[cmacd123]

I'm aware of their published reports, this is where I found my information. Maybe "fraction" is pushing it a little, but according to their Annual Report for 2022, Imaging is by far the smallest revenue generator (~333 billion yen, ~13% of total), followed by Materials (~627 billion yen, ~25% of total). I wish it would get more detailed, I would love to see Instax's percentage of Consumer Imaging revenue.

Remember that Fuji still has Business Imaging businesses like the former "Fuji Xerox" on the burner. So that imaging may include a lot of items that have nothing to do with Analoge film.

 

[Arcadia4]

View attachment 352612

Also from B&H.
The decision to brand items as Harman may be a choice, not a necessity.

Harman has tm rights under its own name for all its products, (and to many of the product names, hp5 etc) and licence rights to the ilford name for certain product classes. For some categories they could probably brand either way, although the suc are normally branded as Harman, ‘with Ilford film’ thus covering both bases, and all of the ilford branded product has a harman subbranding.

What isn't clear is whether there is a licensing cost to use the ilford brand either currently or at a future renewal (unless granted in perpetuity), which might affect the decision on branding. Certainly use of a sub brand is usually a prelude to a wholesale re-brand to the new name. (Otherwise whats its purpose).

Whilst it appears Harman ‘Phoenix’ is a specific new product, the use classes do cover all the Ilford branded film, paper, chems products..certainly a harman photo website, looks a possible direct replacement for the ilford photo website, unless its purely for a much anticipated colour product….

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Harman / Ilford would be well advised not to push too far the current interest in black and white photography!
Black and white photography has, so far, endured because of those that are interested in the craft and art as opposed to those that regard photography in increasing megapixels !!
Black and white photography has endured due to it's purity , complexity , diversity and FFS it's unhackable fun!

TB

 

[analogwisdom]

Remember that Fuji still has Business Imaging businesses like the former "Fuji Xerox" on the burner. So that imaging may include a lot of items that have nothing to do with Analoge film.

This falls under their "Business Innovation" sector on their integrated reports.

 

[Agulliver]

It's been said for some time that the Harman license to use the Ilford name is only on existing products....but they certainly have put the Ilford name to the dark tent, some single use cameras that contain HP5+ film and at least one pinhole camera. Whereas other (Harman Titan, for example) are under the Harman name.

Clearly it is possible for them to launch some new B&W film/darkroom related products under the Ilford name. Or they could presumably use the Kentmere name.

Though again some of this is speculation as I don't think any of us here actually knows the details of the agreement between Harman and the owner(s) of the rights to the Ilford name and trademark.

We do know that Harman have sent dealers and influencers a specific product to test, which will be unveiled on 1 December. It's probably therefore not a wholesale rebrand as I had wondered/feared. Normally it would be good for all parties to keep a well known and respected name such as Ilford on the boxes. Harman make more money that way, the owners of the Ilford name also make some money. If Harman feel they must rebrand, they may sell less film under a less well known name and the owners of the Ilford name get nothing. Everyone loses.

 

[Agulliver]

So....
What's the over/under on the number of posts this thread will have at 11:59PM November 30th?

This thread is only 25 pages. it's actually not that big in the grand scheme of things. Nobody is being rude or insulting. We're speculating on what the phoenix might mean...and that's harmless.

 

[Flighter]

As far as I can work out the facts that have been mentioned above are

• Harman has had the rights to use the Ilford name on traditional B&W photo film, chemicals and associated darkroom sundries since the original Ilford went into administration in 2006, the terms including length and any annual fees are not public.
• Ilford Imaging , the "other" Ilford who do mostly inkjet material but were also connected to the recent colour film marketed as 'Ilford Ilfocolor' and made by someone else, has the rights to use the Ilford name on certain other products including colour film.
• Harman have registered (filing date 8 August 2023) the 'Harman Phoenix' trademark for the general category of "Photographic film, paper and plates all being unexposed; unexposed sensitised photographic films; strips of sensitised photographic film [unexposed]; unexposed colour photographic films; unexposed cinematographic films; unexposed camera film; photographic developers; photographic sensitisers; photosensitive materials [films, unexposed]; chemical preparations and substances, all for use in processing photo-sensitive materials."
• Harman Photo is a new branding exercise involving a whole new website, and social media accounts on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter/X.
• Harman Photo has sent phoenix postcards and some as yet undisclosed items to film dealers and influencers including Nico Llasera and Analogue Wonderland who are saying that they are not yet permitted to tell us about what they have been sent....but which they claim is exciting.
• Harman on their Instagram account have confirmed this is not a collaboration with any other company. They were specifically asked if this was a collaboration with FujiFilm or Film Ferrania.
• Nico's Photography Show has a Youtube video titled 'A talk with Ilford : Photopia 2023' posted 4 weeks ago. In a section starting at around 12:20 the interviewer asked whether they have new products lined up for either 'entry level' users or 'Fine Art'. Giles Branthwaite, Sales & Marketing Director at Harman responded "Yeah, we're investing, of course we're investing. I can't disclose the projects or products we're investing in, at this stage. They're not at that level we can do that, yet. But yes of course, we have an R&D department, we're investing through the R&D department. We're investing in our manufacturing as well; we're just investing multi millions into new production capabilities. That's the first time we've been able to say that in decades, literally decades. So that's all good news. There is more stuff coming through; I just can't detail it at this stage."
• Ian Grant mentioned on Saturday 4th November, that Ilford/Harman shut-down their coating line for upgrades recently.
• pentaxuser emailed Harman asking whether the whole thing was genuine and received confirmation that it was from Matt Parry, Head of Marketing at Harman who also said "As you have also seen, we have been sending this new product out to testers, content creators etc ahead of launch and they were allowed to share the news something is coming (the postcard you reference) but the other information such as the product itself is under embargo. This is so they have time to test the product and create content but also so we have time to finish making the product, communicate with our distributor and retail network, ship the product around the world so it is in stores on launch day, build a new website etc etc."
• amudsen mentioned on Wednesday 1st November that the @harmanphoto Instagram account had reposted a post from @expiredfilmclub (an influencer and shop owner) which was a selfie with the caption "shooting something seriously exciting at @harmanphoto today".
• amudsen in a post on Sunday 5th November said that Nico had just posted about it on Instagram, including “and no, it’s not a reusable camera”.
• MCB18 posted on Friday 3rd November "I know someone besides Nico who is in the know. He literally can’t say anything, besides that it’s not insignificant. He can’t even give us a date! But, now that I think about it, he has been hinting at getting access to a film he can’t talk about for months now. Possibly not related, but maybe…"

Anything missing?

Edited to add:

• analogwisdom (below) has spotted that the Darkroom in California have the following announcement on their site: "HARMAN Photo, who produces the much loved Ilford B&W film, paper, and chemistry will be announcing a new product December 1st and this event will be the official launch party. Not only will it feature two meetups but you will get to meet and hear from the HARMAN Photo team, as well as win some great prizes during the Friday night B&C giveaway!"
• Agulliver has said (above) that it is worth noting that Harman also state this is not a relaunch of a product they've previously made.

 

[analogwisdom]

As far as I can work out the facts that have been mentioned above are

• Harman has had the rights to use the Ilford name on traditional B&W photo film, chemicals and associated darkroom sundries since the original Ilford went into administration in 2006, the terms including length and any annual fees are not public.
• Ilford Imaging , the "other" Ilford who do mostly inkjet material but were also connected to the recent colour film marketed as 'Ilford Ilfocolor' and made by someone else, has the rights to use the Ilford name on certain other products including colour film.
• Harman have registered (filing date 8 August 2023) the 'Harman Phoenix' trademark for the general category of "Photographic film, paper and plates all being unexposed; unexposed sensitised photographic films; strips of sensitised photographic film [unexposed]; unexposed colour photographic films; unexposed cinematographic films; unexposed camera film; photographic developers; photographic sensitisers; photosensitive materials [films, unexposed]; chemical preparations and substances, all for use in processing photo-sensitive materials."
• Harman Photo is a new branding exercise involving a whole new website, and social media accounts on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter/X.
• Harman Photo has sent phoenix postcards and some as yet undisclosed items to film dealers and influencers including Nico Llasera and Analogue Wonderland who are saying that they are not yet permitted to tell us about what they have been sent....but which they claim is exciting.
• Harman on their Instagram account have confirmed this is not a collaboration with any other company. They were specifically asked if this was a collaboration with FujiFilm or Film Ferrania.
• Nico's Photography Show has a Youtube video titled 'A talk with Ilford : Photopia 2023' posted 4 weeks ago. In a section starting at around 12:20 the interviewer asked whether they have new products lined up for either 'entry level' users or 'Fine Art'. Giles Branthwaite, Sales & Marketing Director at Harman responded "Yeah, we're investing, of course we're investing. I can't disclose the projects or products we're investing in, at this stage. They're not at that level we can do that, yet. But yes of course, we have an R&D department, we're investing through the R&D department. We're investing in our manufacturing as well; we're just investing multi millions into new production capabilities. That's the first time we've been able to say that in decades, literally decades. So that's all good news. There is more stuff coming through; I just can't detail it at this stage."
• Ian Grant mentioned on Saturday 4th November, that Ilford/Harman shut-down their coating line for upgrades recently.
• pentaxuser emailed Harman asking whether the whole thing was genuine and received confirmation that it was from Matt Parry, Head of Marketing at Harman who also said "As you have also seen, we have been sending this new product out to testers, content creators etc ahead of launch and they were allowed to share the news something is coming (the postcard you reference) but the other information such as the product itself is under embargo. This is so they have time to test the product and create content but also so we have time to finish making the product, communicate with our distributor and retail network, ship the product around the world so it is in stores on launch day, build a new website etc etc."
• amudsen mentioned on Wednesday 1st November that the @harmanphoto Instagram account had reposted a post from @expiredfilmclub (an influencer and shop owner) which was a selfie with the caption "shooting something seriously exciting at @harmanphoto today".
• amudsen in a post on Sunday 5th November said that Nico had just posted about it on Instagram, including “and no, it’s not a reusable camera”.
• MCB18 posted on Friday 3rd November "I know someone besides Nico who is in the know. He literally can’t say anything, besides that it’s not insignificant. He can’t even give us a date! But, now that I think about it, he has been hinting at getting access to a film he can’t talk about for months now. Possibly not related, but maybe…"

Anything missing?

Great summary, thanks for doing this. I just found this by doing some Googling:

HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom Photo Lab

uncategorized - Read more about HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom photo lab has 40+ yrs of quality film developing & scanning.

thedarkroom.com

TheDarkroom in California seems to be hosting the official launch event for whatever the hell this is.

 

[Flighter]

Great summary, thanks for doing this. I just found this by doing some Googling:

HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom Photo Lab

uncategorized - Read more about HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom photo lab has 40+ yrs of quality film developing & scanning.

thedarkroom.com

TheDarkroom in California seems to be hosting the official launch event for whatever the hell this is.

Interesting, thanks for that. The Darkroom's website includes the following (my emphasis) "HARMAN Photo, who produces the much loved Ilford B&W film, paper, and chemistry will be announcing a new product December 1st and this event will be the official launch party. Not only will it feature two meetups but you will get to meet and hear from the HARMAN Photo team, as well as win some great prizes during the Friday night B&C giveaway!

This would seem to rule out the rebranding of Ilford products as Harman as being the subject (or primary subject) of the announcement.

I'll add this to the list.

 

[BrianShaw]

Great summary. Just what someone like me, who has been ignoring this thread, really needs. Isn’t AI a fantastic thing?

 

[Ernst-Jan]

Perhaps HarmanPhoto will start making Tetenal 1847's processing chemicals, including the Colortec series?

I was thinking about that too, that they took over Norderstadter Chemiewerk

 

[Agulliver]

@Flighter thank you for that excellent summary.

Possibly worth noting, the "featured guests" at the launch party are all photographers who shoot film apart from one aspiring photographer.

 

[Don_ih]

Anything missing?

There's also the Instagram guy (a camera store guy) I mentioned in this post shown holding a roll of film, saying he's shooting a brand new film, with harmanphoto tagged in the post....

 

[warden]

Great summary, thanks for doing this. I just found this by doing some Googling:

HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom Photo Lab

uncategorized - Read more about HARMAN Photo Meetup Dec. 1-2, 2023 - The Darkroom photo lab has 40+ yrs of quality film developing & scanning.

thedarkroom.com

TheDarkroom in California seems to be hosting the official launch event for whatever the hell this is.

Thanks for sharing that. The event looks well organized and the bios of the featured guests hint at a product geared toward the younger crowd, a good thing imo. I mean, they're going to do a camera pub crawl at 2pm for cryin' out loud. I think after the announcement we'll learn that they paid attention to the results of the surveys they've authored over the past several years.

The marketing of whatever is coming has been lackluster so far online, but it looks like they've been busy behind the scenes making progress toward a quality launch. Engaging with young YouTube and IG influencers is a good choice.

 

[Flighter]

Possibly worth noting, the "featured guests" at the launch party are all photographers who shoot film apart from one aspiring photographer.

Good spot, I've added it in. Thanks.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

As far as I can work out the facts that have been mentioned above are

• Harman has had the rights to use the Ilford name on traditional B&W photo film, chemicals and associated darkroom sundries since the original Ilford went into administration in 2006, the terms including length and any annual fees are not public.
• Ilford Imaging , the "other" Ilford who do mostly inkjet material but were also connected to the recent colour film marketed as 'Ilford Ilfocolor' and made by someone else, has the rights to use the Ilford name on certain other products including colour film.
• Harman have registered (filing date 8 August 2023) the 'Harman Phoenix' trademark for the general category of "Photographic film, paper and plates all being unexposed; unexposed sensitised photographic films; strips of sensitised photographic film [unexposed]; unexposed colour photographic films; unexposed cinematographic films; unexposed camera film; photographic developers; photographic sensitisers; photosensitive materials [films, unexposed]; chemical preparations and substances, all for use in processing photo-sensitive materials."
• Harman Photo is a new branding exercise involving a whole new website, and social media accounts on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter/X.
• Harman Photo has sent phoenix postcards and some as yet undisclosed items to film dealers and influencers including Nico Llasera and Analogue Wonderland who are saying that they are not yet permitted to tell us about what they have been sent....but which they claim is exciting.
• Harman on their Instagram account have confirmed this is not a collaboration with any other company. They were specifically asked if this was a collaboration with FujiFilm or Film Ferrania.
• Nico's Photography Show has a Youtube video titled 'A talk with Ilford : Photopia 2023' posted 4 weeks ago. In a section starting at around 12:20 the interviewer asked whether they have new products lined up for either 'entry level' users or 'Fine Art'. Giles Branthwaite, Sales & Marketing Director at Harman responded "Yeah, we're investing, of course we're investing. I can't disclose the projects or products we're investing in, at this stage. They're not at that level we can do that, yet. But yes of course, we have an R&D department, we're investing through the R&D department. We're investing in our manufacturing as well; we're just investing multi millions into new production capabilities. That's the first time we've been able to say that in decades, literally decades. So that's all good news. There is more stuff coming through; I just can't detail it at this stage."
• Ian Grant mentioned on Saturday 4th November, that Ilford/Harman shut-down their coating line for upgrades recently.
• pentaxuser emailed Harman asking whether the whole thing was genuine and received confirmation that it was from Matt Parry, Head of Marketing at Harman who also said "As you have also seen, we have been sending this new product out to testers, content creators etc ahead of launch and they were allowed to share the news something is coming (the postcard you reference) but the other information such as the product itself is under embargo. This is so they have time to test the product and create content but also so we have time to finish making the product, communicate with our distributor and retail network, ship the product around the world so it is in stores on launch day, build a new website etc etc."
• amudsen mentioned on Wednesday 1st November that the @harmanphoto Instagram account had reposted a post from @expiredfilmclub (an influencer and shop owner) which was a selfie with the caption "shooting something seriously exciting at @harmanphoto today".
• amudsen in a post on Sunday 5th November said that Nico had just posted about it on Instagram, including “and no, it’s not a reusable camera”.
• MCB18 posted on Friday 3rd November "I know someone besides Nico who is in the know. He literally can’t say anything, besides that it’s not insignificant. He can’t even give us a date! But, now that I think about it, he has been hinting at getting access to a film he can’t talk about for months now. Possibly not related, but maybe…"

Anything missing?

Edited to add:

• analogwisdom (below) has spotted that the Darkroom in California have the following announcement on their site: "HARMAN Photo, who produces the much loved Ilford B&W film, paper, and chemistry will be announcing a new product December 1st and this event will be the official launch party. Not only will it feature two meetups but you will get to meet and hear from the HARMAN Photo team, as well as win some great prizes during the Friday night B&C giveaway!"
• Agulliver has said (above) that it is worth noting that Harman also state this is not a relaunch of a product they've previously made.

To add to this, they specifically mentioned in a comment response that they were not introducing any product that they've discontinued. Which I find kind of baffling with the Phoenix marketing...

 

[Tom Kershaw]

To add to this, they specifically mentioned in a comment response that they were not introducing any product that they've discontinued. Which I find kind of baffling with the Phoenix marketing...

I'm guessing that if a new film has been used outside of Mobberley, then it is getting processed somewhere, and therefore any results are being kept under-wraps as well.