Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[koraks]

Is there any reason why this 1600 ISO panchromatic B&W film couldn't be sold under the Ilford name, though?

I can imagine it would be too close to Delta 3200, eating up its market share.
My guess would be that if they choose this 1600-B&W direction, they'd lump the existing Kentmere films under the new Harman brand as well, so they'd have an apparently quite sensible lineup of 100-400-1600.

 

[Don_ih]

Kentmere is another recognizable brand name with a long history in b&w photography. After going through the effort to promote the Kentmere 120 line, I doubt they'd want to undo that work by renaming the entire brand.

If it was a new b&w film or paper product, it would almost certainly be under the Ilford or Kentmere name.

 

[analogwisdom]

At this point, I doubt Fuji sees Harman/Ilford as a competitor. Harman is presently a Fuji subcontractor. That in itself is odd because Fuji does not need to make or brand 35mm film at all.

QFT! People on this forum will be more in tune, but I have to constantly remind my fellow 20-somethings in real life that, like myself, have only recently got into film photography about this. Imaging is a fraction of Fuji's revenue, and of that fraction, traditional film is an even tinier fraction. Hell, Instax alone generates more revenue than the entire digital camera part of imaging (this includes every digital camera and lens they make).

If Fuji is still coating and confectioning traditional film (who really knows at this point), it truly is a miracle. I don't know the logistics and cost of doing something like shutting a factory down, but I know that whatever money they make from traditional film is a literal drop in the ocean that is their revenue. As far as Fuji is concerned, the "Film Rebirth/Resurgence" (don't get me started on that) doesn't matter at all.

 

[BobUK]

Here in the UK we have a quaint Christmas tradition of handing out redundancy notices in the run up to Christmas.

Could that be what is "coming soon" at Harman/Ilford?

Bah Humbug

 

[Roger Cole]

The whole idea of Harman having secretly figured out a fully fledged color film product in total secrecy over the past years sounds very frivolous to me. On the other hand, Harman engineering a new-ish B&W film based on their existing competencies seems quite likely. Hence my expectation that this is something like Harman Pan 1600 that's about to hit the shelves.
Would make good sense for the winter season, too, speaking of timing.

If it's a black and white film why on earth wouldn't they just market it as Ilford? The world of film knows Ilford and there's no legal bar to marketing a new Ilford black and white film.

 

[Roger Cole]

I can imagine it would be too close to Delta 3200, eating up its market share.
My guess would be that if they choose this 1600-B&W direction, they'd lump the existing Kentmere films under the new Harman brand as well, so they'd have an apparently quite sensible lineup of 100-400-1600.

It still doesn't really make much or any sense to market Ilford Delta 3200 plus a Harman 1600. And if they wanted to extend the Kentmere line, why not just call it Kentmere? It just doesn't make any sense at all to me to go to all the lengths they have to sell a new product as Harman when that product could legally and easily be sold under their existing Ilford or Kentmere names.

 

[Film-Niko]

I'm also very sceptical that they could have perfected colour film, especially C41 which is where the market demand is.

Is there any reason why this 1600 ISO panchromatic B&W film couldn't be sold under the Ilford name, though? I'd certainly be all over it as I push HP5+ to 1600 frequently, and a native 1600ISO B&W film would fit very nicely in my arsenal.

As far as I remember, the deal in 2005 at the management buy-out was that Harman is allowed to use the Ilford brand name only for all those products which were in production at that time.
For all additional and future products a different brand name is needed.
Therefore Harman after the purchase of Kentmere used the Kentmere brand name for the new budget oriented films and papers. And the Harman brand name for later new products like DPP, cameras and SUCs.
Despite the fact that there is Ilford branded film in it, they even weren't allowed to use the brand name for the SUCs.

 

[Film-Niko]

As I understood it they specified the film and emulsion and had InovisCoat do the physical part.

Then you have understood that wrong.

And Adox meanwhile acquired their own colour capable coating machines.

Acquiring a coating machine and producing a competetive color film are two completely different things.
Look at InovisCoat: Two insolvencies since their foundation (the second still going on....), and they needed more than a decade to make a decent color film like that one now being sold as Color Mission. And that despite the fact that they started with very experienced former Agfa engineers and original Agfa machinery.
Second example: Film Ferrania. For almost ten years now they have all the needed machinery, but still no color film......
You are underestimating the difficulties of color film production.

 

[Film-Niko]

Imaging is a fraction of Fuji's revenue,

Nope, it has been quite constantly about 15-17% in the last years. That is certainly too much for being a "fraction". Look at their published balanced sheets.

and of that fraction, traditional film is an even tinier fraction. Hell, Instax alone generates more revenue than the entire digital camera part of imaging (this includes every digital camera and lens they make).

That is correct. Their whole traditional silver-halide business including instax, standard film, RA-4 photo paper, photo chemistry, minilab machines is about 10-12% of the overall revenue, and digital only 4-5%.

If Fuji is still coating and confectioning traditional film (who really knows at this point), it truly is a miracle.

A friend recently bought fresh Provia 100F 35mm with 07/2025.

 

[Film-Niko]

Kentmere is another recognizable brand name with a long history in b&w photography. After going through the effort to promote the Kentmere 120 line, I doubt they'd want to undo that work by renaming the entire brand.

+1.

If it was a new b&w film or paper product, it would almost certainly be under the Ilford or Kentmere name.

As explained above, if I remember right, a new product is not possible under the Ilford name.
And a high-quality or premium product would not make sense being introduced under the Kentmere brand name which is used for a bit lower quality and cheaper products.

 

[MattKing]

As far as I remember, the deal in 2005 at the management buy-out was that Harman is allowed to use the Ilford brand name only for all those products which were in production at that time.
For all additional and future products a different brand name is needed.
Therefore Harman after the purchase of Kentmere used the Kentmere brand name for the new budget oriented films and papers. And the Harman brand name for later new products like DPP, cameras and SUCs.
Despite the fact that there is Ilford branded film in it, they even weren't allowed to use the brand name for the SUCs.

That has never been my understanding. They have never been constrained from making and selling new products and using the Ilford name as long as the products relate to Black and White film photography.
The use of the brand is constrained, not the products themselves.
Thus the "Ilford darkroom tent".
What is true is that when they started up in 2005 they vowed to do their best to never delete from the product line anything that they were able to produce and sell in 2005. AFAIK, the only failed in that vow with respect to 2.5 products - Cooltone developer, 220 film and, to a certain extent, direct reversal paper.

 

[brbo]

As far as I remember, the deal in 2005 at the management buy-out was that Harman is allowed to use the Ilford brand name only for all those products which were in production at that time.
For all additional and future products a different brand name is needed.

AFAIK, Ilford Ortho 80 wasn't a current product in 2005. So, your understanding of the terms under which the Ilford trademark is licensed to Harman is most probably not entirely correct. As is probably not correct the "beaten to death" "understanding" that there is no way Harman can license the use of Ilford trademark for non-BW products from the trademark owner.

 

[mshchem]

QFT! People on this forum will be more in tune, but I have to constantly remind my fellow 20-somethings in real life that, like myself, have only recently got into film photography about this. Imaging is a fraction of Fuji's revenue, and of that fraction, traditional film is an even tinier fraction. Hell, Instax alone generates more revenue than the entire digital camera part of imaging (this includes every digital camera and lens they make).

If Fuji is still coating and confectioning traditional film (who really knows at this point), it truly is a miracle. I don't know the logistics and cost of doing something like shutting a factory down, but I know that whatever money they make from traditional film is a literal drop in the ocean that is their revenue. As far as Fuji is concerned, the "Film Rebirth/Resurgence" (don't get me started on that) doesn't matter at all.

Well said, I suspect that Fujifilm is trying to keep their manufacturing folks focused on Instax. If Fujifilm is buying color film from Kodak, and intend to continue. Fujifilm could see Harman as a future 2nd supplier.

Who knows, it seems to me that this has to be something not related to black and white photography,

 

[MattKing]

Who knows, it seems to me that this has to be something not related to black and white photography,

At least not black and white film photography.

 

[Film-Niko]

That has never been my understanding. They have never been constrained from making and selling new products and using the Ilford name as long as the products relate to Black and White film photography.

But why then introducing DPP and all the cameras even including the SUCs as Harman instead of Ilford?
Does not make much sense if they would have been allowed to use the Ilford brand name in general for all BW related products.

The use of the brand is constrained, not the products themselves.
Thus the "Ilford darkroom tent".

What do you mean with the use of the brand is constrained, and not the related products?

 

[Film-Niko]

AFAIK, Ilford Ortho 80 wasn't a current product in 2005.

It was available at that time as 4x5" film.

 

[analogwisdom]

Nope, it has been quite constantly about 15-17% in the last years. That is certainly too much for being a "fraction". Look at their published balanced sheets.

I'm aware of their published reports, this is where I found my information. Maybe "fraction" is pushing it a little, but according to their Annual Report for 2022, Imaging is by far the smallest revenue generator (~333 billion yen, ~13% of total), followed by Materials (~627 billion yen, ~25% of total). I wish it would get more detailed, I would love to see Instax's percentage of Consumer Imaging revenue.

My point was, traditional color film is a tiny tiny part of their business and I'm just surprised that it's still around from Fuji.

A friend recently bought fresh Provia 100F 35mm with 07/2025.

I know that restocks are happening constantly, I believe Japan just got some more fresh Superia Premium and Fujicolor 100 as well. There is the whole "frozen master roll" conspiracy (I don't buy this) - but, I think no one truly knows what is going on with Fuji's traditional film manufacturing. I'm grateful it's still around, because Velvia and Provia are by far my favorite film stocks, and I have been steadily building a stash in the freezer while I still can. I just hope that when they inevitably get axed, there will still be color chemistry for long enough to make building a stash worth it.

 

[MattKing]

But why then introducing DPP and all the cameras even including the SUCs as Harman instead of Ilford?
Does not make much sense if they would have been allowed to use the Ilford brand name in general for all BW related products.

They do use Ilford for the cameras loaded with black and white film:

What do you mean with the use of the brand is constrained, and not the related products?

The wording of their restriction isn't based on a list of products or a date. It is based on what types of products that the brand can be used for.

And I'm not sure why they chose Harman instead of Ilford for the Direct Positive Paper - perhaps because no film is required for its use?

 

[Film-Niko]

I'm aware of their published reports, this is where I found my information.

Great.
The problem with their reports is that some silver-halide products, e.g. X-ray film, are not included in the imaging section, but in others.
So total revenue in silver-halide products is bigger than what is shown under 'imaging'.

 

[Film-Niko]

They do use Ilford for the cameras loaded with black and white film:

Strange, from where is that screenshot?
Because when I look at the Ilfordphoto official homepage, there are no single use cameras listed at all.
But at the start page on left top there is a menu "our brands":

Ilford Photo Home Page

Welcome to the official ILFORD PHOTO website - The home of black & white film photography & darkroom printing. Join the analogue revolution!

www.ilfordphoto.com

And when you click on it harmantechnology.com pops up, and there you find the SUCs as Harman branded products:

Cameras & Photography Products | Ilford Photo

At Ilford Photo, we have a wide range of cameras for all types of photography and specialist uses. Discover the full range today.

www.harmantechnology.com

 

[Film-Niko]

And I'm not sure why they chose Harman instead of Ilford for the Direct Positive Paper - perhaps because no film is required for its use?

But their pinhole cameras are also branded as Harman, so that can't be the reason I think.

 

[Don_ih]

It's a camera branded Harman but also with Ilford written on it.

 

[BobD]

The more I look at this the less it looks like it's any kind of film. I think it's more likely to be some kind of camera or darkroom hardware.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Perhaps HarmanPhoto will start making Tetenal 1847's processing chemicals, including the Colortec series?

 

[Todd Barlow]

LED Variable Contrast Enlarger Head for various enlargers....