Fair enough (although we won’t agree the price of silver is the whole story when it comes to paper pricing). I expressed a negative opinion and that is or should be allowed.
Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?
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Fair enough (although we won’t agree the price of silver is the whole story when it comes to paper pricing). I expressed a negative opinion and that is or should be allowed.
You're welcome to express a negative opinion, just as I'm welcome to point out that it might be wrong
You're welcome to express a negative opinion, just as I'm welcome to point out that it might be wrong
Works for me.
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Be careful! The opinion police are out in force tonight, the rubber bullets will will be flying next!Works for me.
Yeah. Really. I don't get the hate against Harman. They have been completely honest about what Harman Phoenix and Harman Red are, and I cannot think of any other company that's investing this level of effort into bringing new film products to the market. Fuji has largely exited the market except for Instax. Kodak is not introducing new products. Orwo is, but they're secretive and it's hard to know what they're planning or where they want to go. Ferrania made a brave attempt, but they seem to have stalled.
It's similar to all the hate that Pentax got for daring to bring a new film camera to the market that wasn't a full frame SLR with manual controls and great lens for $300.
I swear, the film photography community will be the death of film photography.
Nobody needs film photography at all. If we replace "needs" with "wants", then there are certainly a lot of people who would like to live in a world where not every color negative roll film is made by a company in Rochester that begins with "K" and ends in "odak". Especially when said company isn't even allowed to actually sell roll film to the public and is forced to go through a gate-keeper.
I would imagine that anyone interested in the temporary survival of what's left of film photography would want > 1 color film maker.
I purchased a couple of rolls of Harman Phoenix, Harman Red, and a few Orwo films for that matter, fully aware of their deficiencies. I also bought three rolls of Kentmere 200, which I guess is not deficient, but it's a new film product.
If Harman announces Phoenix II, I will buy a couple of rolls the same day.
Well yes obviously nobody “needs” film, especially not if darkroom prints aren’t being made. Few people do that anymore but I’m a hanger-on who still does. I’m pissed about the price of Ilford paper and not impressed with these recent products. That’s my opinion. Nobody else is required to agree, but the notion it is somehow shameful to complain about the activities or direction of a business is absurd. How dare I express a negative opinion about the benevolent Harman.
MattKing
Moderator
Moderator hat on:
Lets step back a bit.
Reasonably held feelings of discontent about trends in the photographic industry, expressed reasonably, are appropriate subjects for posts here on Photrio.
Just as it is appropriate to respond reasonably with disagreement about how such trends are inter-related.
Moderator hat off.
FWIW, I would suggest that the only thing that is likely to moderate the continuing increases in photographic paper prices would be growth of the Harman business - and colour film is an obvious target market.
Lets step back a bit.
Reasonably held feelings of discontent about trends in the photographic industry, expressed reasonably, are appropriate subjects for posts here on Photrio.
Just as it is appropriate to respond reasonably with disagreement about how such trends are inter-related.
Moderator hat off.
FWIW, I would suggest that the only thing that is likely to moderate the continuing increases in photographic paper prices would be growth of the Harman business - and colour film is an obvious target market.
It is unclear how long the previous version of Harman could have kept on trucking without any expansion or new products. they occupy a niche within a niche, being specialists in B&W film photography products. They have probably the best reputation within that niche, but nowhere else to go. They already sell under Ilford and Kentmere just about anything one could possibly want in B&W still film photography. And they are not permitted to use those trademarked names for any other sectors.
It is an undeniable fact that costs have been rising for raw materials, energy, labour and buildings/rent/mortgage. There are also some raw materials used in photo chemicals and film which really aren't used in any other industry. As the film industry has contracted, this has affected all film manufacturers. The only way to keep prices under any kind of control and to ensure existing products remain in production is to expand the company.
Harman has identified the colour print film market as a sector they could viably develop products for. It's also by far the biggest chunk of the film photography market. The C41 film market dwarfs the B&W and transparency markets many times over. Harman's expansion into this market does not strike me as evil Pemberstone seeking world domination via incrementally improving camera film. It's a strategy to ensure the growth of the company at minimal risk, which will have the effect of ensuring all the B&W products we know and love also remain in production and hopefully in the future with fewer jarring price increases.
In the meantime. we have another cryptic clue from Harman on their socials. I know a lot of folk here, being even older and more crusty than myself, don't like this kind of marketing but it's how things are done these days - especially for the audience the Harman colour products are mostly aimed at. It will be a tad underwhelming if it's nothing more than Phoenix Red in 120, but that's possible given the overall look of the graphics. I'm personally hoping that they've achieved adding the orange mask to Phoenix, which will make it much easier for mini labs to scan...and easier to print. The graphic kind of reminds me of what one might see approaching a darkroom door which wasn't quite shut. So perhaps it's something darkroom related, or more likely...improved Phoenix that's easier to print in the darkrrom???
Whatever the upcoming announcement is, I hope it's another step on the journey towards a more standard colour print film. And I continue to applaud Harman for innovating and actually putting considerable funds into coming up with totally new products.
It is an undeniable fact that costs have been rising for raw materials, energy, labour and buildings/rent/mortgage. There are also some raw materials used in photo chemicals and film which really aren't used in any other industry. As the film industry has contracted, this has affected all film manufacturers. The only way to keep prices under any kind of control and to ensure existing products remain in production is to expand the company.
Harman has identified the colour print film market as a sector they could viably develop products for. It's also by far the biggest chunk of the film photography market. The C41 film market dwarfs the B&W and transparency markets many times over. Harman's expansion into this market does not strike me as evil Pemberstone seeking world domination via incrementally improving camera film. It's a strategy to ensure the growth of the company at minimal risk, which will have the effect of ensuring all the B&W products we know and love also remain in production and hopefully in the future with fewer jarring price increases.
In the meantime. we have another cryptic clue from Harman on their socials. I know a lot of folk here, being even older and more crusty than myself, don't like this kind of marketing but it's how things are done these days - especially for the audience the Harman colour products are mostly aimed at. It will be a tad underwhelming if it's nothing more than Phoenix Red in 120, but that's possible given the overall look of the graphics. I'm personally hoping that they've achieved adding the orange mask to Phoenix, which will make it much easier for mini labs to scan...and easier to print. The graphic kind of reminds me of what one might see approaching a darkroom door which wasn't quite shut. So perhaps it's something darkroom related, or more likely...improved Phoenix that's easier to print in the darkrrom???
Whatever the upcoming announcement is, I hope it's another step on the journey towards a more standard colour print film. And I continue to applaud Harman for innovating and actually putting considerable funds into coming up with totally new products.
....and silver projected to increase in cost.......its ounce = $36.09 1026GMT
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Costs of everything have gone up and will continue to do so, as they've virtually always done except under circumstances in which we wouldn't bother with film and paper anyway. Silver is just one small element of the many cost drivers. Energy, cost of capital and labor are much more significant factors for an outfit like Harman. What doesn't help either is that demand for paper is relatively low (compared to film) and that there's a massive amount of dead capital in the downstream supply chain in the form of boxes of paper of various formats that need to be kept on stock. It's just a grossly inefficient product category - and one that's very sensitive to e.g. energy prices to boot - don't forget that a paper base consists of three major production factors: wood, energy and water. Energy is a massive cost driver at the moment and will continue to be.
There is to remember what already is gone: Agfa, Konica, etc. Those better be "unnecessary" products already because they are no more. There is the old adage of market economics that if it does not suit your needs, you don't need to purchase it (not addressed to you Agulliver).
I am not the target of their current C41 iteration but an improved product will be of interest to me; something equivalent to a 90s consumer Konica/Agfa color product. That takes a lot of resources, if anyone did something similar it's Polaroid with integral.
Orwo, Harman, Adox, Lucky; all are to some extent the new (re)entrants in color film.
Looking by the graphics it appears are RED in 120. I already thought they had released it but honestly I am not much into Harman's current C41 offerings.
Aside of the Pemberstone change, have good memories of the former management at Ilford Harman but it seems the spirit is still there. They are interestingly expanding their lineup with Kentmere and Phoenix+RED.
10 years ago I think it was justifiable to be wary of Pemberstone. But look at Harman's ownership under them over those 10 years. Not a single B&W film product dropped, and several new ones introduced. Still the best range of B&W paper and chemicals on the planet. I think it is way past the time when any concern over Pemberstone's ownership is justified.
Ilford is *the* big name in B&W film photography globally.
So the parent company, Harman, want to expand the company responsibly and by all reasonable logic and due diligence, the venture into C41 colour film is the way to do that. The risk is small, and the potential rewards are comparatively huge. They've secured £10m investment from lloyds in a long term partnership. Clearly Pemberstone are in this for the long haul with Ilford, Kentmere and Harman brands.
Over on the socials, Harman are being a bit cheeky responding to speculation on what the new announcement will be...all in good nature. For example "It's 100 and 200 ISO APS Film!" from London Camera Project gets the reply "Your test rolls are in the post "
I do think the shade of red is different to the one used to bring us the 35mm red film. This is lighter, almost purple/magenta end of red.
Ilford is *the* big name in B&W film photography globally.
So the parent company, Harman, want to expand the company responsibly and by all reasonable logic and due diligence, the venture into C41 colour film is the way to do that. The risk is small, and the potential rewards are comparatively huge. They've secured £10m investment from lloyds in a long term partnership. Clearly Pemberstone are in this for the long haul with Ilford, Kentmere and Harman brands.
Over on the socials, Harman are being a bit cheeky responding to speculation on what the new announcement will be...all in good nature. For example "It's 100 and 200 ISO APS Film!" from London Camera Project gets the reply "Your test rolls are in the post
"I do think the shade of red is different to the one used to bring us the 35mm red film. This is lighter, almost purple/magenta end of red.
And more importantly it seems to be being done in a way that ensures cross-pollination (and thus potential new products in B&W) rather than silo'd research teams. The whole point of a lot of Ilford's emulsion research (e.g. Delta and XP) was that it was intended to lead to colour products anyway...
Except that in terms of the death or continued life of film photography this forum does not represent the bulk of film users nor the future of film. We are not anything like big enough to be that important to Harman or to any other film manufacturers for that matter.
We may of course implode
but if I say any more my post will probably metamorphose into Bogie's speech to Ilsa about amounting to " a hill of beans" at the end of Casablancapentaxuser
Yes, it seems that Kentmere 200 was a happy by-product of the ongoing R&D project who's main goal is to improve Phoenix. Not the biggest headline to hit the film world in the last decade but a welcome addition to Harman's portfolio of films.
We would be the death of film photography if the majority of film users came here. I have to say, I know a fair few out there in the real world from aged 20 up to 70s....and they've either never heard of this place or roll their eyes "Oh, Photrio....I've heard about that". And honestly, I try to bring them here to see the good...but there is a lot of bickering and unwarranted negativity. I did leave myself for a year or more some time back.
Mind you, it's not just here. The magnetic tape forums are the same....and as for Doctor Who fandom.....
I wouldn't disagree with this statement, but really wonder who does represent the bulk of film users... specifically regarding consumer film for still photography? I haven't been able to figure out an answer. Generic replies seem to have been offered in the past based, apparently, on who the film companies are directing their marketing but not sure if that reflects the prediliction of the marketing team or data regarding the biggest film users.
Total guess but I think they're going to add the orange mask to Phoenix.
My half joking half serious answer is grandparents who are set in their ways and keep buying 3 packs of Fuji at Walmart
That would be a logical step. It'd be cool if they would have managed it by now.
Dabblers. There are hundreds of times as many dabblers in film photography than people genuinely dedicated to it.
It's quite likely that when the masking couplers are incorporated, it'll be a much more complete film (probably using the K200 emulsion components somewhere too). I think there'll be much more of a build up for that release however.
I might be in the minority but I also hope they keep Phoenix around too. I really like the stuff
Andrew O'Neill
Moderator
I'm with thinkbrown...
I don’t personally have any use for “gimmick” color films, and in fact, I don’t use color films at all (the two rolls of Ektachrome I bought a few years ago for nostalgia's sake don’t really count).
But if Harman wants to explore these curious C-41 type films and bring them to market in an attempt to appeal to a specific demographic, that’s fine by me. The audience for such materials is likely much larger than the group that uses B&W films, so products like “red scale” and Phoenix have the potential to boost Harman’s financial stability, which is something that I want to see.
I don’t know for a fact how healthy Ilford is these days, but I can imagine that there are probably limits on how much Ilford can grow its B&W customer base. Anything Harman can do that helps insure Ilford’s future is okay with me.
But if Harman wants to explore these curious C-41 type films and bring them to market in an attempt to appeal to a specific demographic, that’s fine by me. The audience for such materials is likely much larger than the group that uses B&W films, so products like “red scale” and Phoenix have the potential to boost Harman’s financial stability, which is something that I want to see.
I don’t know for a fact how healthy Ilford is these days, but I can imagine that there are probably limits on how much Ilford can grow its B&W customer base. Anything Harman can do that helps insure Ilford’s future is okay with me.
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