Future of 120 film

[Nick Zentena]

The way I understand it the big issue with 120 is the backing paper. So few companies make it. Which makes me wonder why they aren't pushing 220 more.

On the movie issue. US cinemas are balking at the cost of the change over. How long until every little place around the world changes over? I bet even if they shoot on digital they'll end up printing some on film.

On the colour/b&w thing. The colour market is so huge I wonder if 99% of the colour market disappeared and only 50% of the B&W did which would be bigger?

 

[jd callow]

The way I understand it the big issue with 120 is the backing paper. So few companies make it. Which makes me wonder why they aren't pushing 220 more.

On the movie issue. US cinemas are balking at the cost of the change over. How long until every little place around the world changes over? I bet even if they shoot on digital they'll end up printing some on film.

On the colour/b&w thing. The colour market is so huge I wonder if 99% of the colour market disappeared and only 50% of the B&W did which would be bigger?

Nick you may be correct -- I was guessing. Except for the part about movie stock. This I was told by a guy who seemed to know his stuff.

 

[Nick Zentena]

It just seems the colour market is so huge relative to the B&W market. In a way that's good. The B&W market has been small for years so maybe it'll manage better.

 

[juan]

I was talking to the folks at my local camera store a couple of weeks ago about 120. They say they cannot sell it - the pros, who used to be their market, have switched to digital. They say that with the manufacturer set minimums they have to order, they may not order any more. They can't sell the minimum order before the film date expires.

I would think that this means we'll be ordering 120 by mail, but that it will still be available for some time to come.

Buy what you want for now - worry about the future when it gets here.
juan

 

[roteague]

Yes, you pretty well have to take the situation as it is, and now worrry about the future. Markets change, so you may need to find other places to buy the film you want, but you will be able to get it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Guys, I own 4 4x5 cameras and 3 MF cameras. I'm not giving up that easily.

If you have followed my posts elsewhere, I am learning how to coat my own film. At the present time, I have hopes to attain an ISO 25 - 100 orthochromatic film by the end of the year. Right now, I'm doing ISO 25 ortho paper negatives in my RZ67 using a polaroid back and I'm using a 4x5 holder for sheets in my LF camera.

I will NEVER lack for film or paper.

PE

 

[jd callow]

I will NEVER lack for film or paper.

PE

And if film production goes south you'll never lack for friends

 

[Brac]

The way I understand it the big issue with 120 is the backing paper. So few companies make it. Which makes me wonder why they aren't pushing 220 more.

There is still backing paper needed for 220 albeit just at the beginning & end of the roll.

 

[Mongo]

It was interesting to see that nobody here wanted to agree to the forecast of some of those "insiders" who say 120 will be in troubles first.

Bertram-

I'll bite...here are my predictions (based on absolutely nothing, and worth what you paid me for them).

I'm guessing that 120 color film will be the first to go, but that will probably take 5-10 years. B&W 120 film will outlast me, but will become a boutique item in about 10-15 years. By boutique item, I mean that no large company will be producing it, and the number of distributors will be very small...in the world of the Internet, probably less than a dozen. Look at J and C for an idea of the type of company I'm talking about. (I'm not worried about backing paper...J and C 100 Pro comes with backing paper that's nothing like the stuff on Kodak or Fuji, but that works fine with a little consideration.)

35mm will disappear as a format (in the same way that 127 disappeared...it'll only be available from a limited set of suppliers at a higher price) before 120 B&W does. Digicams are being purchased in developing countries at higher rates than expected, and the bottom-end digicams are reaching incredibly low price points.

I saw a 2.1MP digicam with no preview screen for - I think - $39 at WalMart recently. It may have been $29, but I'd have to check to be sure and I try to stay away from WalMart as much as possible. The camea, though, is fine for the 4x6 prints that most people are happy with. Add enough built in memory for 36 shots and you have a camera that replaces a 35mm disposable...and the price will head nowhere but down. I expect these types of cameras to completely displace film at the bottom end of the economy, journalists to completely shoot digital (which is virtually true today), and artists to head to larger film sizes. Who does that leave shooting 35mm? Not many.

So, those are my predictions. Worth absolutely nothing, really, as my crystal ball is not functioning properly. Given that film exists within a much larger economy, and number of events could happen to hasten or slow the disappearance of film. But in general, I expect 120 B&W to outlast everything else in 35mm and 120. Given that 120 B&W is one of my favorite things my predictions are most certainly tainted by my desires. Take all of this for what it's worth (less than nothing), but I expect that as long as film is being made then 120 B&W will be available.

Be well.
Dave

 

[Dr David Hall]

The real question is what do what to produce now and what medium do you want to produce it in. Next year...is a long time away in terms of creativity and direction in your photgraphs. Creativity is a process starting when you conceive what you want to produce.

 

[waynecrider]

This question has been posed by more then a few people and elicits mostly positive statements as concerns availability into the future. I would suspect that tho that the truth of the matter is, is that choices will dwindle each and every year as profits become so small that one by one the coating plants will shut down. In the end, as long as there is a need, there will be somone trying to fulfill that need, but with what kind of product?

I would recommend that you consider your real needs vs what you think you need. If your photo business or sales are suffering because your equipment is limiting you, I would say solve your problem. But if you are a creative shooter for your own desire, do consider the fact that whatever expense you incur in buying such equipment, will probably never be recouped except in the rewards in the creation of your art.

I think therefore that you have a few choices:--1. Not give a hoot and buy anyways; --2. Buy a camera system that has a digital back available; Just in case of film availability problems.-- 3. Buy the equipment and write off the expenditure thru a business or just take it as a personal loss that will never be recouped;-- 4. Pass the format up and go LARGE and help keep LF alive. More then likely lf'ers will always be able to coat their own film. Having owned multiple mf systems, my own personal philosophy is that mf was, and still is to a degree a money dumping ground for amatuers. For what I have spent chasing mf equipment, I could have toured the continent with my $200 Graphic and have a house full of prints to show for it. I also would have much preferred sipping a coffee in Paris with my Graphic then in owning a large expensive hasselblad lens.

I would say in closing, that I've let more then 1 car or truck be hauled away by the junk yard tow truck for a measly $100 after having spend tens of thousands of dollars for them new or in trying to keep them running. You might want to put your purchase in such perspective.

 

[Daniel Lawton]

That's true indeed. But I am not one of the digital Joe Average lemmings who have accepted that from now on you have to replace your system every couple of years, investing an enormous amount of money each time.
Where I come from (historically) you bought good stuff, took care of it , provided for adaequate maintainance and kept it for a lifetime.
I still own a Cord my father bought used in the early 60s.

Whatever will happen, the supply will last for 10 years more I suppose,
another ten years more I can store in the freezer, enuff time to justify a 100% write off then.

It was interesting to see that nobody here wanted to agree to the forecast of some of those "insiders" who say 120 will be in troubles first.

Reagrds,
Bertram

I would agree that 120 film will experience serious trouble in the future and I actually believe 35mm will fare much better since there is still a large consumer base who use 35mm film for casual snapshots and could care less about the newest digital imaging technology. MF however, has been historically supported by professionals and serious amateurs who desire high image quality. It still exists because it is superior to DSLR's and those digital capture methods that do rival MF film are prohibitively expensive for all but the wealthiest of photographers. As digital inevitably enters the realm of MF and the price becomes realistic I fear for what might happen. Those of us who enjoy the film based methods of photography and would continue to use it no matter how "good" digital becomes are in the minority and I can only hope we are enough to keep the industry afloat but I have some doubts. In the meantime I'll keep buying film, chemistry and paper and have fun until the end. When I buy a car I'm pretty sure it will die on me someday but the useful time I get out of it is enough to justify the cost. I bought a MF system this summer and the enjoyment I have received thus far in return has already paid for the camera.

 

[ineffablething]

I work in a big camera store where 50% or more of our business is working professionals. 120 film is still a big player, 35mm less so. We still do alot of 4x5 as well. 220 and 8x10 are the ones that are really shrinking.

 

[rfshootist]

I work in a big camera store where 50% or more of our business is working professionals. 120 film is still a big player, 35mm less so. We still do alot of 4x5 as well. 220 and 8x10 are the ones that are really shrinking.

Interesting ! Which country is it ?
Regards,
Bertram

 

[haris]

Well, in 1992 started war in my country and I was afraid will I survive or not. Then capitalism replaced socialism and I was afraid to keep my job. Then digital come and I was afraid about future of film... ENOUGH! I don't want to live in fear. So, I bought two months ago Mamiya RB kit, and plane to but from time to time some films, papers, and even chemictry, to use it and to make stock for future. And with monthly income of about 500 EUR it is not easy, but never mind. That is my way.

So, if I am not afraid in future if 120 film, and make plan how to avoid problems in future, I belive you can do that too, or even more easily than I can. After all in my country there are not shops in which I can simply go and buy, I must order everything frm abroad, and as I don't have credit card, Internet buying is out of question. But I have found my way. If I can be any kind of example, there is no room for fear.

Regards

 

[MattKing]

Well, in 1992 started war in my country and I was afraid will I survive or not. Then capitalism replaced socialism and I was afraid to keep my job. Then digital come and I was afraid about future of film... ENOUGH! I don't want to live in fear. So, I bought two months ago Mamiya RB kit, and plane to but from time to time some films, papers, and even chemictry, to use it and to make stock for future. And with monthly income of about 500 EUR it is not easy, but never mind. That is my way.

So, if I am not afraid in future if 120 film, and make plan how to avoid problems in future, I belive you can do that too, or even more easily than I can. After all in my country there are not shops in which I can simply go and buy, I must order everything frm abroad, and as I don't have credit card, Internet buying is out of question. But I have found my way. If I can be any kind of example, there is no room for fear.

Regards

haris - thank you for adding your valuable perspective to this question.

Matt

 

[Fintan]

Well, in 1992 started war in my country and I was afraid will I survive or not. Then capitalism replaced socialism and I was afraid to keep my job. Then digital come and I was afraid about future of film... ENOUGH! I don't want to live in fear. So, I bought two months ago Mamiya RB kit, and plane to but from time to time some films, papers, and even chemictry, to use it and to make stock for future. And with monthly income of about 500 EUR it is not easy, but never mind. That is my way.

So, if I am not afraid in future if 120 film, and make plan how to avoid problems in future, I belive you can do that too, or even more easily than I can. After all in my country there are not shops in which I can simply go and buy, I must order everything frm abroad, and as I don't have credit card, Internet buying is out of question. But I have found my way. If I can be any kind of example, there is no room for fear.

Regards

Hey Haris,

Great post and does indeed put a lot of perspective on the issue. Listen I've about 5 packs of various black and white films, some expire in january, some later.
If you PM me your address, I'll post them over to you if you promise to put some shots of [size=-1]Sarajevo[/size]in the gallery. Deal?

Fintan

 

[ineffablething]

Interesting ! Which country is it ?
Regards,
Bertram

US. I think, I don't really recognize the place anymore..........

 

[Changeling1]

rfshootist-

A point to ponder in this world of uncertainty-

Yesterday is gone and tomorrow hasn't come. Our gift is today and that's why it's called..... "the present"!

Don't squander your enjoyment of today in fear of the future.

 

[kjsphoto]

I have no idea if it is going to be gone or not but as long as Fuji keeps making acros I am happy. ANd it seems that, that company is supporting film and I do not seem them going away anytime soon. So I see Fuji and Ilford to still make 120 and then you also have J and C and other that I am not aware of. I wouldn't worry about it and just shoot it and have fun.

Just my opinion,

Kev

 

[Curt]

If 120 film ever ends I'm going to make small glass plates to go into a tiny glass holder that fits into my Mamiya.
It will be called my little glass with class.
Or... I'll figure out how to coat plastic and make my own film.

 

[chiller]

In the US you are very fortunate to have JandC. recently I tried their JandC 100 and "if" there was no other film I could happily live with that in 120. Use an alkali fixer though.

Here in Australia it seems I can still get certain 120 films but suprisingly I'm able to get 5x4 film in semi reliable quantities.

I have decided to set my darkroom up on 35mm and 5x4 with my Hasselblad for special occassions. I have 45 rolls of APX 100 left but can get Acros if needed or import a good quantity from JandC of the 100 iso film

I'm starting to emerge from the gloom of this digitally induced depression to a bright analog future based on 5x4. If it was good enough for the masters of the past I'm happy to refine my skills at a craft I love.

If 120 is ever all gone,which I actually doubt, then 5x4 is still available .

 

[gbroadbridge]

chiller, check seller ahflip on ebay.com.au. He sells lots of 135 and 120 at quite reasonable prices. Email him and I bet he can get 4x5 for you cheap too.

Graham (just a satisfied buyer)

 

[chiller]

chiller, check seller ahflip on ebay.com.au. He sells lots of 135 and 120 at quite reasonable prices. Email him and I bet he can get 4x5 for you cheap too.

Graham (just a satisfied buyer)

Thanks Graham

Will do

 

[haris]

Matt King and Fintan, thank you for finding my post of any help.

Fintan, I have sent PM to you, maybe not the kind what would be expected, but I hope you will find it interesting

Thanks and regards.