Fuji freezer film rumour

[cmacd123]

There were times when almost every film manufacturer made their own color paper. Oh those times...

I wonder if Foma ever made "Western Style" RA-4 paper, or if thee paper they made was of the old style Agfa type like most of the other eastern european makers. They strike me as one of the few that has B&W photo paper capabiliites still.

 

[mshchem]

If Fuji left the manufacturing of color paper RA4 would be done. I would bet 100 or so customers make up 90% of their business. Huge companies printing snaps and photo books etc.

 

[halfaman]

Even if Fuji left the business?

There were times when almost every film manufacturer made their own color paper. Oh those times...

RA4 paper survives because it is a low cost technology with very good quality compared to inkjet. Paper and chemicals are pretty inexpensive, and printing speed gives good productivity. An 5x7" print costs just a couple of cents. So no big margins here for a manufacturer, all profit comes from volume that requires investments in expensive lines.

 

[Osmdesat]

I wonder if Foma ever made "Western Style" RA-4 paper, or if thee paper they made was of the old style Agfa type like most of the other eastern european makers. They strike me as one of the few that has B&W photo paper capabiliites still.

I think they had their own process for their Fomacolor papers, like every manufacturer had before Kodak processes took over. I have formulas and they used T32 or in updated version Ac 60 developing agent. Of course the process might evolve, as Fomacolor papers were also updated during their production since end of 50s till the beginning of 90s, when production of these papers ceased. But they didn't got even close to some RA-4. I have some photos from 80s on Foma color RC paper and they hold up quite well.
In later years, like end of 90s, Foma supposedly made RA-4 papers in Fuji licence. Other rumours say they were only repackaging the bulk RA-4 material from Fuji. Who knows.

 

[foc]

I think they had their own process for their Fomacolor papers, like every manufacturer had before Kodak processes took over. I have formulas and they used T32 or in updated version Ac 60 developing agent. Of course the process might evolve, as Fomacolor papers were also updated during their production since end of 50s till the beginning of 90s, when production of these papers ceased. But they didn't got even close to some RA-4. I have some photos from 80s on Foma color RC paper and they hold up quite well.
In later years, like end of 90s, Foma supposedly made RA-4 papers in Fuji licence. Other rumours say they were only repackaging the bulk RA-4 material from Fuji. Who knows.

According to the Timeline Of Historical Film Color website, Fomacolor was the following.

A chromogenic process based on Agfacolor​

That would lead me to think that their paper was based on the Agfacolor principles, but as you say they may have made changes. A lot of Warsaw Pact countries/Soviet satellite states use the Agfa/Orwo colour principles.

 

[Osmdesat]

According to the Timeline Of Historical Film Color website, Fomacolor was the following.

A chromogenic process based on Agfacolor​

That would lead me to think that their paper was based on the Agfacolor principles, but as you say they may have made changes. A lot of Warsaw Pact countries/Soviet satellite states use the Agfa/Orwo colour principles.

As of films, you are right. Recipes for Foma color films were never published by Foma, however I know quite sure that Fomachrom MD reversal film used Agfa AP 41 process. Fomacolor negative film or Foma color positive print films are out of my knowledge. But since manufacture of color films at Foma started later than at Agfa/Orwo, I guess they just took over some know-how from Orwo.

But with papers it seems more difficult. I am not sure if Orwo Wolfen made color papers already before. If so, they could be taken from Agfa Leverkusen before the divorce of Leverkusen and Wolfen plants. Agfa Leverkusen made color papers since 1940s.
The thing is that process formulas for Agfa color papers from 1950s I have don't even remotedly match the formulas for Fomacolor papers. Formulas for later (1970s) Agfa color papers weren't probably publicly available, but alternative recipes I have don't match the Foma's either. So I am inclined to the opinion that Foma color papers were their own product.

 

[foc]

Formulas for later (1970s) Agfa color papers weren't probably publicly available, but alternative recipes I have don't match the Foma's either. So I am inclined to the opinion that Foma color papers were their own product.

Is there any chance that the Foma colour paper was based or related to Soviet colour paper formulas? After world war two the Agfa formulas were made free available by the Allies and the Soviets took what they could, formulas, knowledge and equipment.

 

[Osmdesat]

Is there any chance that the Foma colour paper was based or related to Soviet colour paper formulas? After world war two the Agfa formulas were made free available by the Allies and the Soviets took what they could, formulas, knowledge and equipment.

Not sure. I can ask somebody who knows Foma people, because I am interested in this topic too. I think Foma have all their documentation properly archived, so it depends how willing is somebody there to look it up there. But Soviets were our big role model, so Soviet influece could be easily possible.

 

[LeoniD]

I wonder if Foma ever made "Western Style" RA-4 paper, or if thee paper they made was of the old style Agfa type like most of the other eastern european makers. They strike me as one of the few that has B&W photo paper capabiliites still.

No. AFAIK, only Forte did

Is there any chance that the Foma colour paper was based or related to Soviet colour paper formulas? After world war two the Agfa formulas were made free available by the Allies and the Soviets took what they could, formulas, knowledge and equipment.

Developing solution formulas do look close enough to Fototsvet papers http://istoriya-foto.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000004/st010.shtml

 

[Sanug]

In the 1990s I bought some Foma EP-2 paper in Prague. It was repacked Fuji paper. The development chemicals were really a Foma product.

 

[Prest_400]

Online source, Reddit, non-official:

A user has posted that they reached out to Moment (I find it's a store based in WA, US) with the following unavailability reply. I copy over the image from the Reddit post. It can be whatever basically; it can be that they just do batches off E6 (optimistically).

 

[ChrisGalway]

Online source, Reddit, non-official:

A user has posted that they reached out to Moment (I find it's a store based in WA, US) with the following unavailability reply. I copy over the image from the Reddit post. It can be whatever basically; it can be that they just do batches off E6 (optimistically).


View attachment 372474

Nothing new here, Fuji have been releasing Provia 100f in relatively small batches for several years now. Over the past 12-18 months, I've bought 120 size boxes with "expiry" dates of 10/24, 06/25, 07/25, 09/25, 10/25 and 01/26 (and two boxes on the way, hopefully dates later than 01/26). I think they are just making/releasing small amounts. Fortunately, the price is stable at €50-€60 per box, compared to €100-€120 per box for Ektachrome.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Nothing new here, Fuji have been releasing Provia 100f in relatively small batches for several years now. Over the past 12-18 months, I've bought 120 size boxes with "expiry" dates of 10/24, 06/25, 07/25, 09/25, 10/25 and 01/26 (and two boxes on the way, hopefully dates later than 01/26). I think they are just making/releasing small amounts. Fortunately, the price is stable at €50-€60 per box, compared to €100-€120 per box for Ektachrome.

Hopefully, they'll continue to make E-6 film, even of it is in small batches. I also hope they'll continue making Acros II. Maybe @Henning Serger will chime-in.

 

[ant!]

I also hope they'll continue making Acros II. Maybe @Henning Serger will chime-in.

Since Acros is actually made by Harman (under who knows what agreement, but for sure in the UK and not related to any E-6 manufacturing lines), I guess the end of one is completely independent to the end of the other...

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Since Acros is actually made by Harman (under who knows what agreement, but for sure in the UK and not related to any E-6 manufacturing lines), I guess the end of one is completely independent to the end of the other...

I think Harman coats emulsion that is made by Fuji. At least, that's what I've heard although it was on the internet
Regardless of who actually makes what part, I just hope I can still get it (and E-6, too).

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Since Acros is actually made by Harman (under who knows what agreement, but for sure in the UK...

I think Harman coats emulsion that is made by Fuji...

The only thing those without insider information "know" is that HARMAN, at minimum, confections/finishes ACROS II. It might receive master/parent rolls from Fuji and cut/package them, it might receive emulsion from Fuji and coat, then cut/package, or it might have been provided the emulsion recipe by Fuji, done a lot of work to ensure it comes out the same in HARMAN kettles as it did in Fuji's development kettles, prepare and coat, then cut/package. Anyone who claims to be providing a definitive answer about this is likely being less than honest or violating a nondisclosure agreement.

 

[koraks]

or it might have been provided the emulsion recipe by Fuji, done a lot of work to ensure it comes out the same in HARMAN kettles as it did in Fuji's development kettles

...or it could be a Harman-made product using some input (including perhaps some intellectual property) from Fuji.
It could indeed be anything spanning the entire gamut that you mention.
I have my suspicions, though...

 

[brbo]

The only thing those without insider information "know" is that HARMAN, at minimum, confections/finishes ACROS II. It might receive master/parent rolls from Fuji and cut/package them, it might receive emulsion from Fuji and coat, then cut/package, or it might have been provided the emulsion recipe by Fuji, done a lot of work to ensure it comes out the same in HARMAN kettles as it did in Fuji's development kettles, prepare and coat, then cut/package. Anyone who claims to be providing a definitive answer about this is likely being less than honest or violating a nondisclosure agreement.

We can still use our brains to eliminate the most nonsensical of all the theoretical arrangements between Harman and Fuji. For example, why would Fuji send master rolls to Harman when they evidently (E-6) still have capabilities to cut and roll 120 film...

 

[foc]

I have my suspicions, though...

Are they similar to Fuji Neopan 400CN/Ilford XP2 super? (very, very, very similar product, different packaging)

 

[Lachlan Young]

...or it could be a Harman-made product using some input (including perhaps some intellectual property) from Fuji.
It could indeed be anything spanning the entire gamut that you mention.
I have my suspicions, though...

There's a very good chance it's something very similar to Delta 100 up to the emulsion finishing steps (Fuji's Epitaxial Sigma Grain and Ilford's epitaxial Delta crystal technology seem remarkably similar, almost as if some technology sharing went on somewhere in the past) - with Fuji supplying/ specifying sensitising dyes, LIRF dopants etc that define the product as 'Acros' .

 

[koraks]

@Lachlan Young indeed, I'd expect it to be something along those lines.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Just for interest, are the ACROS II spools like the nice Provia ones? Ilford/Harman spools are basic, Fuji Provia ones have had some thought put into their design.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Nothing new here, Fuji have been releasing Provia 100f in relatively small batches for several years now. Over the past 12-18 months, I've bought 120 size boxes with "expiry" dates of 10/24, 06/25, 07/25, 09/25, 10/25 and 01/26 (and two boxes on the way, hopefully dates later than 01/26). I think they are just making/releasing small amounts. Fortunately, the price is stable at €50-€60 per box, compared to €100-€120 per box for Ektachrome.

Just to add that the 2 boxes that arrived today have dates of 11/25 and 3/26. Pity they weren't both 3/26 but "beggars can't be choosers"!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...why would Fuji send master rolls to Harman when they evidently (E-6) still have capabilities to cut and roll 120 film...

Bottlenecks in Fuji's finishing facilities, for any number of possible reasons, could easily explain that.

Just for interest, are the ACROS II spools like the nice Provia ones? Ilford/Harman spools are basic, Fuji Provia ones have had some thought put into their design.

All 120 ACROS II I've used has been on Ilford's standard spools. Not Fuji's spools with a central stud to catch the hole at the start of Fuji's 120 backing paper. And the backing paper resembles Ilford's standard backing paper, i.e. lacks a hole at the start.

 

[koraks]

Bottlenecks in Fuji's finishing facilities

Because of the absolutely massive amounts of 35mm and 120 film they've been putting out and the gigantic increase in these volumes since the start of this century?