Fuji freezer film rumour

[cmacd123]

Tell that to Mirko at ADOX.

or Dave Marshall at Flic Film. (unlike Mirko, loading film into cassettes is Dave's main business.)

 

[armadsen]

I love Provia and Velvia and shoot both regularly in 35mm, 120, and 4x5 (down to my last half box of Velvia). Trying to be optimistic, I hope Fuji will outsource coating of their emulsions when/if they stop doing it themselves, or run out of their frozen stock. There’s precedent with Ilford making Acros II, and Kodak supplying their color negative film. I don’t care too much about their C-41 film, but if their slide film goes away, that leaves E100 as the sole color slide film in the world, which seems very precarious, especially since Kodak discontinued it once before.

 

[blee1996]

Or hopefully Fuji can make a deal with Harman to produce their C200 and C400 under some license, so Harman don't have to start from scratch with Phoenix 200? Fuji already uses Harman for part of Acros II production chain.

In the mean time, I have to stock up a few last batch of Japan made Fuji C200 and C400...

 

[SilverShutter]

It might be cheaper for the consumer to have Kodak make Fuji color negative. Allows Fuji to maximize Instax, allows Kodak to maximize conventional film.
Sounds crazy but it might be true???

Sounds good but it means Kodak has basically all control over negative colour film pricing at the moment. So if they raise prices, there's no competitor to switch to.

 

[Agulliver]

Well, that is disappointing. If being quite optimist and related to the 2019 thread, they might be having the Kodak Fujicolor filling in supply while they are focusing in Instax. Or eventually, long term, supplying film in an arrangement similar to Acros (keeping the original product properties) or just outsourcing Kodak.

I echo your thoughts. And it's interesting because C41 has supposedly had a lot of demand with the backlogging since the pandemic. 35mm C41 particularly being the hot cakes that they could not confection quick enough. I don't think E6 does as much.

Oh there's no doubt that sales of C41 consumer grade film exploded a couple of years before the pandemic and demand remains high...not 1999 levels high but far greater than expected in, say, 2012. We know, because Kodak stated it, that there was a backlog of some 30+ million 35mm colour films at the start of 2020. And that was just Kodak. They have adapted, but it took a lot of investment. Fuji are said not to have been able to adapt. Because they are quite secretive, nobody outside actually knows what the issues are so we can only guess. But it is certainly very difficult to go from a huge operation manufacturing tens or even hundreds of millions of rolls of film a year, to a much smaller amount....and then trying to ramp up again.

Didn't Fuji announce a big investment in their photo film production for 2000? I seem to recall that. And they had already put zillions into APS (as did Kodak)...which never saw any return. One can hardly forgive them for being cautious and it's not as if their main competitors made all the right decisions either. But this is disappointing. Superia 400 was my favourite C41 film and had been since the mid 90s. I have seven rolls left. And while I am visiting Japan in about 12 months time, I doubt I'll find any there by then. I also mourn the permanent loss of Fuji Press 800 and Superia 1600....we may never see their likes again. I just preferred the Fuji colour palette to Kodak's in most cases. It's not like Kodak make bad film, I'd just prefer to choose Superia 400 over Ultramax.

Regarding the idea of having Harman make C200 and Superia 400 for Fuji....it must be remembered that it's not a case of emailing over a recipe. Harman don't have the necessary coating equipment to make anything like those films....unless Fuji are kind enough to ship theirs over. And even then, it is likely that post-pandemic the supply of certain raw chemicals involved in past film production is difficult or impossible. Witness Kodak changing the materials used to make pretty much all their C41 film. But the common belief is that Fuji's suitable coating equipment is simply on too large a scale, and they haven't been able to downscale like Kodak did. For alternatives to Kodak-derived C41 film we are probably going to have to look longer term to Harman and Adox and maybe Ferrania perfecting their production. What they are both trying to do is gain in-house knowledge and production capabilities....future proofing their businesses while working steadily towards the goal of offering high quality colour film.

WHat Fuji does still have going for it is brand recognition. In the states, Wal-Mart has been selling Fuji branded film for yonks...as have Boots over here in the UK. Both still sell considerable amounts of the "Made in USA" FujiFilm products. They're available, visible on shelves and outside of us nerds I suspect many people who simply pick film off the shelf won't know what's going on. It must make money for Fuji, Kodak and the retailers....all of which is good....but none of which brings us any closer to knowing what Fuji's long term plans are.

 

[koraks]

Tell that to Mirko at ADOX.

Adox isn't Fuji. What is strategic to one firm doesn't make it strategic to another.

Moreover, not all activities that turn out to be bottlenecks here or there are strategic. Strategic means to me it's a source of competitive advantage in the long run. Confectioning is really a sideshow.

 

[Prest_400]

Oh there's no doubt that sales of C41 consumer grade film exploded a couple of years before the pandemic and demand remains high...not 1999 levels high but far greater than expected in, say, 2012. We know, because Kodak stated it, that there was a backlog of some 30+ million 35mm colour films at the start of 2020. And that was just Kodak. They have adapted, but it took a lot of investment. Fuji are said not to have been able to adapt. Because they are quite secretive, nobody outside actually knows what the issues are so we can only guess. But it is certainly very difficult to go from a huge operation manufacturing tens or even hundreds of millions of rolls of film a year, to a much smaller amount....and then trying to ramp up again.

Didn't Fuji announce a big investment in their photo film production for 2000? I seem to recall that. And they had already put zillions into APS (as did Kodak)...which never saw any return. One can hardly forgive them for being cautious and it's not as if their main competitors made all the right decisions either. But this is disappointing. Superia 400 was my favourite C41 film and had been since the mid 90s. I have seven rolls left. And while I am visiting Japan in about 12 months time, I doubt I'll find any there by then. I also mourn the permanent loss of Fuji Press 800 and Superia 1600....we may never see their likes again. I just preferred the Fuji colour palette to Kodak's in most cases. It's not like Kodak make bad film, I'd just prefer to choose Superia 400 over Ultramax.

Regarding the idea of having Harman make C200 and Superia 400 for Fuji....it must be remembered that it's not a case of emailing over a recipe. Harman don't have the necessary coating equipment to make anything like those films....unless Fuji are kind enough to ship theirs over. And even then, it is likely that post-pandemic the supply of certain raw chemicals involved in past film production is difficult or impossible. Witness Kodak changing the materials used to make pretty much all their C41 film. But the common belief is that Fuji's suitable coating equipment is simply on too large a scale, and they haven't been able to downscale like Kodak did. For alternatives to Kodak-derived C41 film we are probably going to have to look longer term to Harman and Adox and maybe Ferrania perfecting their production. What they are both trying to do is gain in-house knowledge and production capabilities....future proofing their businesses while working steadily towards the goal of offering high quality colour film.

WHat Fuji does still have going for it is brand recognition. In the states, Wal-Mart has been selling Fuji branded film for yonks...as have Boots over here in the UK. Both still sell considerable amounts of the "Made in USA" FujiFilm products. They're available, visible on shelves and outside of us nerds I suspect many people who simply pick film off the shelf won't know what's going on. It must make money for Fuji, Kodak and the retailers....all of which is good....but none of which brings us any closer to knowing what Fuji's long term plans are.

But the Downsizing (mostly coating) is a 2000-2010s issue I would say. For Kodak I recall we discussed with PE how they managed to downsize production of the overly huge capacity in B38. Would need to search around, but there was very interesting contributions by him about this. I recall that, paraphrasing, one coating run was able to cover a year's demand of some of the products.
I understood Kodak's (and Fuji's) bottleneck this decade has been finishing.

Fuji Japan are investing for film, but just Instax. That's the 20% increase that they have for this year's period.

Perhaps we get to see some occasional product run such as Slide film; but that one is supplied in very limited amounts now. In any case Fuji is willing to cover their part of the market with the rebrands, and perhaps they do see there is some valuable to keep a foothold with the name brand? In any case, (re)formulating films due to the continuous supply chain challenges does take quite some resources and those resources are just dedicated to Instax product. It's also interesting that the Yen has challenging times, so that probably affects the business picture now.

So like Koraks says, Instax does need film coating capabilities and other things as well. Unfortunately still films seem to be victims of Fuji's own success via Instax and they are not the priority. If there is solace about keeping the knowledge of color film manufacturing, the commonalities of the products keep this afloat. Fuji's know-how of color film is something that would be tragic to lose.

 

[brbo]

Speaking of Fuji produced film... FotoImpex has the only remaining Fuji produced negative films, FujiColor 100 and Superia Premium 400, in stock. I believe individual orders are limited to 3. But they also have Adox Color Mission 200 in stock. So you only add Harman Phoenix 200 and Kodak ColorPlus 200 to your order and you'll have quite a story to tell to your grandchildren. I don't think you could buy all those films at the same time in the last 3 years.

 

[loccdor]

It seems like just yesterday that we were buying Superia in lots for $1.50 each as consumers were abandoning their film cameras. We had it good in those days. I'll miss the Fuji colors. Hope the know-how gets passed along somehow, even if under different management.

 

[MFstooges]

I read a feed about Fuji back into color neg production but then bumped into this YT channel. What do you guys think?

 

[mshchem]

Nope

 

[Samu]

I am more concerned about the future of photofinishing products made by Fuji. They have a virtual monopoly in color papers and developers aimed to minilabs and bigger labs in the European market. Should they decide to withdraw, it would kill color film - at least for me, who is not interested in using color negative for making only digital files. There is no other reliable supplierr of chemistry in the European market except for Fuji Hunt in Belgium, and all papers available are made by Fuji in the Netherlands. There are smaller manufacturers for chemistry, but the availabiiliy is questionable. No other papers are on the market - except for those for inkjet and sublimation printing. There have been rumors about Kodak trying to resume these operations under their brand after the bankruptcy of Sino Promise, but as I wrote, these are just rumors. I don´t assume Fuji discontinuing these products in the near future, but for the potential photofinisher´s perspective, the question is still there: should you invest tens of thousands of dollars (or euros) for a Frontier, if there is a risk that all papers will be discontinued in 5 years?

I also wonder what will happen to E6. It is a fraction of the market for color negative, but it would be a pity to lose the trchnology altogether. Is one film (Kodak Ektachrome), which is manufactured just occasionally, enough to maintain labs developing it? I can develop my own, but most people who buy these films rely on labs. Will Fuji continue to make Provia and Velvia, and if so, when will they be available outside Japan?

 

[koraks]

They have a virtual monopoly in color papers and developers aimed to minilabs and bigger labs in the European market. Should they decide to withdraw, it would kill color film

There's no real relationship between color papers and color film in the sense that the former is somehow keeping the latter alive. The two became decoupled some 2 decades ago and color film is still around. Apparently, it can survive on its own. Color paper is used for digital print and only a tiny fraction is used for printing from color negative, and the vast majority of those prints are made from digital scans.

all papers available are made by Fuji in the Netherlands.

That's largely true, with the exception of Lucky in China, but their papers are not very easily available outside of Asia, and the quality is questionable.

There is no other reliable supplierr of chemistry in the European market

Bellini and Adox come to mind, and there may be one or two I'm forgetting about. They seem to have been quite dependable, especially Adox, for quite some time now.

There have been rumors about Kodak trying to resume these operations under their brand

Unfortunately they don't seem to be substantiated by any credible evidence. Endura was a great product.

if there is a risk that all papers will be discontinued in 5 years?

Fuji would be hard-pressed to make hard claims about the future, but informally I've been told by a Fuji manager (in a highly relevant position in the company) that (1) there are no plans or intentions to discontinue color photographic paper and that the timescale they're thinking in is considerably longer than the 5 years you mention, and indeed longer than the realistic write-off period of a brand new Frontier etc.

 

[Samu]

There's no real relationship between color papers and color film in the sense that the former is somehow keeping the latter alive. The two became decoupled some 2 decades ago and color film is still around. Apparently, it can survive on its own. Color paper is used for digital print and only a tiny fraction is used for printing from color negative, and the vast majority of those prints are made from digital scans.



That's largely true, with the exception of Lucky in China, but their papers are not very easily available outside of Asia, and the quality is questionable.



Bellini and Adox come to mind, and there may be one or two I'm forgetting about. They seem to have been quite dependable, especially Adox, for quite some time now.



Unfortunately they don't seem to be substantiated by any credible evidence. Endura was a great product.



Fuji would be hard-pressed to make hard claims about the future, but informally I've been told by a Fuji manager (in a highly relevant position in the company) that (1) there are no plans or intentions to discontinue color photographic paper and that the timescale they're thinking in is considerably longer than the 5 years you mention, and indeed longer than the realistic write-off period of a brand new Frontier etc.

Adox and companiies making small kits for home use are not relevant for photofinishers, My point is that we need the whole chain, not just small companies such as Adox or Bellini. Bellini does make chemistry in larger quantities, but at least hrtr, there is no dealers here selling the stuff to the photofinishers. Fuji does.

Paper did not die 20 years ago. There are still many photofinishers printing on DP II, with their Frontiers for instance. It is not the small time hobbyista but the photofinishing industry than keeps papers and chemistry alive. I am not speaking of crappy 0,šL powder kits for home use. Most of the folks shooting on color film rely on labs for their scans and prints. Not all of those are made (thank God( by dry minilabs. In my toen, Kaunas, there are at least 4 shops printing with a Fuji Frontier. It will be a real piece of ""it for those businesses if paper would be withdrawn. Maybe in Holland the situation is woese, I don't know.

I hope this is true what the manager said. The style of Japanese companies is not to say anything bad directly. I heard that a year ago they were sure that Superia line of films will "never" be canceled. This is of course speculation, but I aam sure they have some kind of deal wit Kodak for producing papers and chemistry for Europe, because it would be a disaster for Kodak too, if photofinishers had no paper or chemistry.

 

[koraks]

Paper did not die 20 years ago.

I didn't say or imply this. I meant that the connection between paper and color film became irrelevant from an industrial perspective around that time.

My point is that we need the whole chain

Even if you have one manufacturer for paper and one for chemistry, it's still the whole chain.
It's very unattractive for anyone to enter either the paper segment (virtually impossible given the investments required) and chemistry is a low-margin bulk product. The fact that a shakeout happened with only a very few last men standing is a common trait of industries with similar characteristics.

Maybe in Holland the situation is woese, I don't know.

Not a whole lot of minilabs here; there's a few here and there, but the overall volume is fairly small. Most of the photographic color printing (i.e. snapshots) is done in one or two big labs; until recently this happened in the country but a major chunk has recently moved to Germany.

The major user of color RA4 paper (worldwide, mind you) is one single business which operates of a handful of major labs. Then there's a slew of also fairly major labs spread out across the globe, but all quite small in comparison to the #1. Finally there's a massive tail of tiny labs like the single-Frontier setups you also mention; they probably run in the 1000s worldwide but account for only a small part of the color RA4 paper consumption.

As you implied, the landscape differs very dramatically between countries and especially continents. The US has adopted inkjet to a much larger extent already than Europe, and the organization of the 'printing chain' in Europe varies between countries, with in particular a divide between the NW-EU and the South and East. A quick glance at a few economic key figures explains a lot.

 

[Samu]

Not a whole lot of minilabs here; there's a few here and there, but the overall volume is fairly small. Most of the photographic color printing (i.e. snapshots) is done in one or two big labs; until recently this happened in the country but a major chunk has recently moved to Germany.

The major user of color RA4 paper (worldwide, mind you) is one single business which operates of a handful of major labs. Then there's a slew of also fairly major labs spread out across the globe, but all quite small in comparison to the #1. Finally there's a massive tail of tiny labs like the single-Frontier setups you also mention; they probably run in the 1000s worldwide but account for only a small part of the color RA4 paper consumption.

As you implied, the landscape differs very dramatically between countries and especially continents. The US has adopted inkjet to a much larger extent already than Europe, and the organization of the 'printing chain' in Europe varies between countries, with in particular a divide between the NW-EU and the South and East. A quick glance at a few economic key figures explains a lot.

We have a bit different situation here in Lithuania. Of course, there are no more "one hour minilabs" on every corner, if there ever was. But the big labs have pretty much ceased to exist. It is those one Frontier operations, and some stores having "dry minilabs" aka a tabletop printer for snapshots. And a few places doing E6 and B&W with a Jobo. Too little clients with slide films to maintain a replenished process in a machine for most shops. Still. many places have Frontiers and print routinely with them.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

That's largely true, with the exception of Lucky in China, but their papers are not very easily available outside of Asia, and the quality is questionable.

Doesn't Fuji also manufacture RA4 paper in Japan? And until 2 years ago also in the USA?

 

[Ernst-Jan]

And new Frontiers are still being made? I thought the were all 20+ years old.

 

[koraks]

Doesn't Fuji also manufacture RA4 paper in Japan? And until 2 years ago also in the USA?

Yes, indeed; Fuji Japan makes Ever Beauty paper, I don't think it's available outside Japan. The US plant closed not too long ago; production shifted from there to Tilburg.

And new Frontiers are still being made? I thought the were all 20+ years old.

Yes, for digital print. I think there's only a single model still being produced; the 9700.

 

[mshchem]

And new Frontiers are still being made? I thought the were all 20+ years old.

There's no new film processing machines that I can find on Fuji's US website, still an ra4 printer.

 

[foc]

To my knowledge the Fuji Frontier LP9700 is based on the Noritsu QSS3904 model. They also offer the Frontier LP5700. It appears to be different models in different world markets.

As far as I know, it has been more than a few years since Fuji built their own wet lab Frontiers. Most were rebadged Noritsu.

I think the last film processor they offered was the FP150 again similar to Noritsu machines. All film processors I have seen online are refurbished machines. If fully refurbished by a reputable company/engineer they should be like new and should last at least 8-10 years. But they aren't cheap, but there is a good supply of spare parts.

I often think the weak link in the revival/comeback of film photography is the supply of commercial film processing equipment and commercial lab scanners.

 

[Agulliver]

It's a bit like the situation with vinyl records a few years ago, the revival reached a stumbling block because every available record press in the world was running at full capacity. What it took to further increase record production capacity was for someone to take the leap and manufacture new record presses....which has now happened, one company in Germany and another I think in Canada have introduced new models.

In another few years, if the film revival and especially C41 colour film keeps going on the upward trajectory....we will need new mini labs. Because the existing ones will wear out, spare parts will eventually dry up. My local lab runs an Agfa DLab2 and spare parts are already difficult to come by. She's had bits 3D printed, parts sourced from Poland and so on.

It would be a huge undertaking to resume manufacture of mini labs....but if the record industry could pull off something similar, maybe the film industry will be able to do likewise in a few years.

Meanwhile...keep buying and shooting film if you want any of this to happen. It's about all most of us can do.

 

[Osmdesat]

I am also anxious about future of colour RA-4 paper, more than about future of colour film.
It's kinda calming to hear that Fuji don't plan to cut off color paper production so far. But Fuji are profit oriented huge corporation and if some business doesn't generate expected (huge) money, they can leave it whenever. Fuji management can be film or RA-4 enthusiasts, but I doubt Fuji shareholders are.
Every business will run as long as there's enough demand for it. It doesn't matter whether it's digital or analogue business. Money does decide.
I think the key is in the expensive RA-4 photofinishers photolabs own and maintain. The normal end customer doesn't care really, if their prints are chromogenic, or other. I talked to the owner of the only remaining photo lab in our 100k city and she said she won't dump her Noritsu, because she has paid a fortune for a new laser unit recently. She and others like her are the key for RA-4 business still running. Not the customers who want their prints.
Also the manufacturing process of RA-4 paper is delicate. Sure, many components has RA-4 paper in common with BW paper (which is luckily much less endangered). But some chemicals like colour couplers are unique to color material. I don't know if all these special chemicals produce Fuji by theirselves, or if they outsource them. Who produces all the CD-3 (or CD-4) is unknown to me? Is it Kodak only? If so, Fuji is also dependent on Kodak.
So the sourcing of these special chemicals is also crucial and once some component lacks in the market, the industry will break down.
If somebody else would want to enter into color film or color paper business and wanted to do it on their own, they must first source all these chemicals needed. But if only Fuji makes them and if Fuji leaves the business, it will mean troubles to get them. Maybe still from Kodak? Second, they would have to develop manufacturing process itself, which can take years.

 

[koraks]

Fuji management can be film or RA-4 enthusiasts, but I doubt Fuji shareholders are.

Fuji's shareholders have no direct influence on choices relating to specific activities such as RA4 manufacture. I wouldn't worry about this too much; shareholders are interested in profitability at a macro level. Color paper production is hidden pretty deep inside 'Imaging Products' and simply put, shareholders don't even know how profitable it is. (For all I know, it's still quite profitable.)

Who produces all the CD-3 (or CD-4) is unknown to me? Is it Kodak only?

Not Kodak AFAIK; I think pretty much all CD3 and CD4 is of Chinese manufacture. Where they get color couplers from, I don't know. There surely are bottleneck chemicals; there are always bottlenecks in every supply chain.

If somebody else would want to enter into color film or color paper business

Nobody in their right mind will enter the color paper business.

 

[Osmdesat]

Where they get color couplers from, I don't know.

Who knows. But I don't think there is some place where one can buy "colour couples". Colour couplers just are/can be many. Print materials (i.e. those intended for direct observing) use different ones than negative materials. So couplers for a negative film cannot be used for a paper. And every film manufacturer used/developed their own couplers, being part of the specific properties of their products and being probably a secret. But it doesn't mean that Fuji produce them on their own anymore. They can. But also they could hire somebody else to prepare them (exclusively) for Fuji (according to some recipe Fuji gave them).

Nobody in their right mind will enter the color paper business.

Even if Fuji left the business?

There were times when almost every film manufacturer made their own color paper. Oh those times...