From Youtube: Drum Scan vs DSLR vs Epson (Via Nick Carver)

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Lachlan Young

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:smile: Problems you have with sharpening are interesting !!!!

Are you using "single slider" sharpening tools ? Remember that at least "two sliders" tools are required, radius and 100%, this is about balancing well radius and % and carefully avoiding the least overshot.

Please let me explain you again that I never oversharpen, with the V700 image I do the same that your Pro scanner does inside automaticly without you are aware.

Look, those crops are not mine, mostly corresponds to side by side made by others (nothing forged) showing Epson is inferior, then I present the same crop at x10 to x20, and amazingly the images do match perfectly, to the point that you may even not know if the image comes from the Epson or from Creo - Scanmate_Drum - Howtek_drum_Nikon500ED - Flextight.

Hey... take a look again, click on the thumbnails to see the 10x or 20x, NO difference, NO excessive sharpening:


Each of your 'examples' has errors of omission. Really serious ones. You refuse to show areas of smooth tone and critical grain detail - why? And then when challenged, give an 8x10 - which has the exact problems I outlined. If you'd aimed the scan for 1000-1200ppi or so, it might have looked pretty good. Furthermore, why does the Hasselblad scanner (in the non-downsampled examples I gave) quite clearly deliver reasonably accurate depictions of HP5's granularity all the way from 1500ppi up, yet the Epson doesn't?

And if you really knew anything about convolution problems, you wouldn't be using the most basic USM to try and resolve them - deconvolution sharpening and HIRALOAM in one form or another are often less obvious in their side-effects and more effective. The Epson still fails because of its fundamental shortcomings in resolution of granularity and small fine details in those lower contrast areas. But that would require you to accept and understand that MTF and noise have far more impact on overall resolution than any high contrast resolution target does.
 

Lachlan Young

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I absolutely agree to those facts.
People sometimes forget that we are dealing with psychooptics (don’t know if there is a better word, I derive it from psychoacoustics).

The phrase I found in a copy of an SPSE publication was 'visual pschyophysics'. And it is that critical juncture of the physical nature of viewing preference - density, colour, sharpness/ granularity- then eventually 'resolution' seems to be the order in which people perceive/ visually process photographs - I understand that apparently in the early days of automated colour printing, this led to 'correct' density being regarded as more important than absolute freedom from colour casts in a print.
 

138S

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Helge

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Hooplaaa!

E538FA6E-1AA6-4AD1-AE62-7492C28B696C.jpeg


(Scanned with the new Epson V950).
 

Lachlan Young

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Instead of incessantly posting the same links to the same discredited or severely flawed 'tests', show us a crop of a scan of a smooth tone area from HP5+ from your own scanner with and without your claimed sharpening applied. Better yet, give examples originated at 1500, 2000, 3000ppi. If it's as easy as you claim, you must be able to demonstrate it with your own work. The church picture is not acceptable as a test.
 
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Does the scan quality of a 35 mm frame depend on where it is placed in the V800 holder? That is, are central ones better because they’re nearer the lens’s axis?

(I’m not at all sure how the “dual lens system” is laid out or even what Epson means by those words.)
 

138S

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Does the scan quality of a 35 mm frame depend on where it is placed in the V800 holder? That is, are central ones better because they’re nearer the lens’s axis?

In theory central strips should have some advantage, but I've never seen a difference in practice.

(I’m not at all sure how the “dual lens system” is laid out or even what Epson means by those words.)

The carriage contains a lens holder that is displaced laterally to replace the lens:

See page 24 in the Service manual, it can be downloaded here:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1000666/Epson-Perfection-V700-Photo.html?page=10#manual


lenses.jpg
 
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I see. Thanks.

I wonder why Epson chose a 149.9 mm field for the “Super Resolution Lens”. That’s not enough for 8×10 but needlessly wide for 4×5 or 120 film.

Maybe there was no reason to further optimise the lens’s image quality while being limited by carriage drive mechanics in the other axis.
 

138S

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Instead of incessantly posting the same links to the same discredited or severely flawed 'tests', show us a crop of a scan of a smooth tone area from HP5+ from your own scanner with and without your claimed sharpening applied. Better yet, give examples originated at 1500, 2000, 3000ppi. If it's as easy as you claim, you must be able to demonstrate it with your own work. The church picture is not acceptable as a test.

Lachlan, sorry, but in particular this is not a discredited or severely flawed test: https://www.largeformatphotography....Epson-Flatbed-Eversmart-Flatbed-Drum-Scanners

Instead it's a really well done test, showing the superior/amazing optical performance of the Creo (5700 effective dpi in any format, if file under 4GByte) but same practical results because limitation in the image quality comes from film nature, beyond other limitations we may have in the taking.

I challenged you to find a difference in that particular side by side because nobody before you challenged its absolute fairness, you are now the very first, IIRC.



...show us a crop of a scan of a smooth tone area from HP5+ from your own scanner with and without your claimed sharpening applied. Better yet, give examples originated at 1500, 2000, 3000ppi. If it's as easy as you claim, you must be able to demonstrate it with your own work. The church picture is not acceptable as a test.

Better using the scans made by Pali, first they cannot be forged me, they can be absolutely trusted and we have both the full resolution original scans made by V700 and the Creo.

It's your chance to demonstrate that the Epson it's the "absolute crap" you are saying. Just calling to action.
 

138S

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I see. Thanks.

I wonder why Epson chose a 149.9 mm field for the “Super Resolution Lens”. That’s not enough for 8×10 but needlessly wide for 4×5 or 120 film.

Maybe there was no reason to further optimise the lens’s image quality while being limited by carriage drive mechanics in the other axis.

It is to fit two 120 strips and four 35mm strips in the same time, so you can load more film and go away for more time until you have to reload more film.

The carriage performance is a factor, but 9600 dpi with "Micro Step" can be used in the vertical direction, anyway I guess that problem is in the belt traction.

That field allows to also scan 5x7" sheets with the right custom holder with the “Super Resolution Lens”, but growing from 5" to 5.9" allows more roll film strips at one time.

I guess they prioritized practical concerns.

In a perfect world the V700 would have 3 lenses :smile: to make everybody happy.
 
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Adrian Bacon

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In case you are not also having a go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Ah... never mind then... I've been following this thread, but have been otherwise sitting out. I currently use a V850 for some things (where it reasonably makes sense), which is why you got a response from me at all as I'd not heard anything about a v950.

Anyway, carry on.
 

Bob Carnie

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Lachlan, sorry, but in particular this is not a discredited or severely flawed test: https://www.largeformatphotography....Epson-Flatbed-Eversmart-Flatbed-Drum-Scanners

Instead it's a really well done test, showing the superior/amazing optical performance of the Creo (5700 effective dpi in any format, if file under 4GByte) but same practical results because limitation in the image quality comes from film nature, beyond other limitations we may have in the taking.

I challenged you to find a difference in that particular side by side because nobody before you challenged its absolute fairness, you are now the very first, IIRC.





Better using the scans made by Pali, first they cannot be forged me, they can be absolutely trusted and we have both the full resolution original scans made by V700 and the Creo.

It's your chance to demonstrate that the Epson it's the "absolute crap" you are saying. Just calling to action.
By any chance are you the same dude who calls himself Pali on LargeFormatPhotography.
 
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Some of these posts crack me up. If you make a photo and people are focusing on your scan technique, you made a bad photo.

For those who think Mr. Carver prepared a bad test, they should post their own test on YouTube and try to get 50,000 people to watch it. I'm glad people take the (considerable) time to produce these free videos for our entertainment. It ain't easy.
I agree. I find him very entertaining, a person dedicated to photography. His enjoyment and love of the craft comes through.
 

138S

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Too many pixel peepers here. Not enough photographers.

:smile: Yes.

My view is that most important concern in the hybrid workflow is how we conserve graphic information through the edition, how we technically optimize the image and the most important, having a refined aesthetic criterion for the edition. Also, if dealing with color, it is important to master advanced tools like 3D LUT Creator or equivalent.

But anyway IMO it's interesting to know how different machines work, what strong and weak points are there, so we can make well informed decisions.
 
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Bob Carnie

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:smile: Yes.

My view is that most important concern in the hybrid workflow is how we conserve graphic information through the edition, how we technically optimize the image and the most important, having a refined aesthetic criterion for the edition. Also, if dealing with color, it is important to master advanced tools like 3D LUT Creator or equivalent.

But anyway IMO it's interesting to know how different machines work, what strong and weak points are there, so we can make well informed decisions.
I thought so.. you are a funny guy Pali.. never let the bone go.
 

138S

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This member is absolutely not Pali,

Pali K is another guy, Bob has a PM.

also Pali K only has an ES Pro not Supreme.

I guess you are not well informed, as it looks he has both a Pro and a Supreme, please read:

https://www.largeformatphotography....Epson-Flatbed-Eversmart-Flatbed-Drum-Scanners

Supreme.JPG


More than a scanner collection it looks 1st Armored Division. :smile:

This thread should finish up and be locked.

Why ? Don't you like the real results Pali K showed in that test? He has always said that drums are the best machines and I agree like many others, but in many situations there are other ways to get absolutely Pro results.

Look, what mostly makes a difference is the man in command.

That test Pali made is quite interesting, because while the Supreme resolves 5700dpi effective practical results match with the Epson which resolves the half: https://www.largeformatphotography....rum-Scanners&p=1479178&viewfull=1#post1479178

This is quite interesting because it shows that limiting factor is film nature, not the scanner. Of course oeach film type behaves different...

This thread should not be closed because we are debating interesting concepts. You may contribute by explaining why those results match when the Epson image is sharpened with regular tools (rectangle in red), which is quite interesting because the other crops come from two Creos and a Scanmate drum, not more and not less.
 
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calebarchie

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I know Pali and we operate several of the same machines, I don't have any problem with what he has posted. However I have seen you ruin several scanning threads across LFF and now Photrio which is such a shame, the thread should have been closed the moment antics get involved. In any case I have reported a number of posts and I don't think there is much further meaningful discussion to be had.
 

Lachlan Young

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Lachlan, sorry, but in particular this is not a discredited or severely flawed test: https://www.largeformatphotography....Epson-Flatbed-Eversmart-Flatbed-Drum-Scanners

Instead it's a really well done test, showing the superior/amazing optical performance of the Creo (5700 effective dpi in any format, if file under 4GByte) but same practical results because limitation in the image quality comes from film nature, beyond other limitations we may have in the taking.

I challenged you to find a difference in that particular side by side because nobody before you challenged its absolute fairness, you are now the very first, IIRC.





Better using the scans made by Pali, first they cannot be forged me, they can be absolutely trusted and we have both the full resolution original scans made by V700 and the Creo.

It's your chance to demonstrate that the Epson it's the "absolute crap" you are saying. Just calling to action.

The negative was an ok choice for comparing colour rendering/ gamut behaviour, it wasn't a good choice for sharpness/ noise comparison.

You seem terribly reluctant to show us an HP5+ scan at the resolutions I suggested, with and without your claimed sharpening. Is it because you know what the results really are?
 

138S

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I know Pali and we operate several of the same machines, I don't have any problem with what he has posted.
In any case I have reported a number of posts and I don't think there is much further meaningful discussion to be had.

OK, anyway if you operate several of the same machines, please let me beg your opinion about those matching results:

https://www.largeformatphotography....rum-Scanners&p=1479178&viewfull=1#post1479178

How it can be that ?


However I have seen you ruin several scanning threads across LFF and now Photrio which is such a shame,

In this particular (and important) thread I ruined nothing, read my posts and you'll see quite interesting contributions:
https://www.largeformatphotography....Epson-Flatbed-Eversmart-Flatbed-Drum-Scanners
 
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