Forte Polywarmtone

[mshchem]

These folks seem to be getting things done. The scale of the operation makes sense .

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Yes. I got an email as I had signed up years ago for notifications.

If you received an email it means you preordered some paper. We did not notify anyone before we had a good feeling that the paper will actually be available in a moderate timeframe now. Obstacles can still occur but at least we have now everything (including HR´s) together to bring this to an end.
If I find the time I will post an image of the stack of sample coatings. There are hundreds if not thousands. Every greyscale means a variation in the emulsions which means aprox. one day of lab work. Then it has to be coated, exposed and developed, measured and a curve needs to be plotted. This is another half day at least.
After estimating the amount of sample coatings I can come up with an estimation of the costs associated but I better don´t for the sake of personal well feeling.
Recreating a silver halide imaging system is VERY COMPLEX.

Mirko

 

[naaldvoerder]

Thanx Mirco, for your update. A lot of people are still waiting for the reemergence of Polywarmtone after a decade. This says something about the popularity of this paper. In the your these engineering stages, are you also looking at lithability? I.e. true infectious development?

 

[L Gebhardt]

If you received an email it means you preordered some paper. We did not notify anyone before we had a good feeling that the paper will actually be available in a moderate timeframe now. Obstacles can still occur but at least we have now everything (including HR´s) together to bring this to an end.
If I find the time I will post an image of the stack of sample coatings. There are hundreds if not thousands. Every greyscale means a variation in the emulsions which means aprox. one day of lab work. Then it has to be coated, exposed and developed, measured and a curve needs to be plotted. This is another half day at least.
After estimating the amount of sample coatings I can come up with an estimation of the costs associated but I better don´t for the sake of personal well feeling.
Recreating a silver halide imaging system is VERY COMPLEX.

Mirko

Mirko, best not to add up the costs - we don't want you getting discouraged. Can you tell us about the paper base you will be using, specifically the FB glossy paper? Will it be a warm base like the old paper, or will it be a cooler paper like Ilford is now using for their warmtone? I've heard rumor that there's only one FB paper stock on the market now, and that's a bit distressing.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Thanx Mirco, for your update. A lot of people are still waiting for the reemergence of Polywarmtone after a decade. This says something about the popularity of this paper. In the your these engineering stages, are you also looking at lithability? I.e. true infectious development?

We do but it´s something very mysterious. No one really knows what to look for. We made tests with single emulsions and the lithability was good but after the build up it vanished and vice versa. In our opinion we have to finish the paper as it is supposed to be and then we try to modify it towards lithability. Most likely there will be two versions.

 

[Lachlan Young]

We do but it´s something very mysterious. No one really knows what to look for. We made tests with single emulsions and the lithability was good but after the build up it vanished and vice versa. In our opinion we have to finish the paper as it is supposed to be and then we try to modify it towards lithability. Most likely there will be two versions.

If anything, the single lithable emulsion might be quite an interesting paper on its own.

 

[mshchem]

I've still got plenty of the original Polywarmtone. I love the paper. The stuff split tones (I'm assuming it's the hard and soft layers?) it's an endearing defect of sorts. Is there banned heavy metals in the original paper? I've always heard it was Cadmium that gave Ektalure etc. that special something . Is this actually true? Is there a substitute? I'm looking forward to see what happens. I'm very impressed at the steady progress Adox is making. Suppliers going forward will need to be small ,smart, flexible and integrated. I think Adox and even some of the traditional majors get this and will do very well.

 

[Wayne]

I seem to recall there being cadmium in the earlier forms but not the latest last versions of PWT.


I sure wish i had plenty left. I have been rationing for 10 years.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I seem to recall there being cadmium in the earlier forms but not the latest last versions of PWT.

I sure wish i had plenty left. I have been rationing for 10 years.

Correct. The Cadmium had to be removed from all european papers in the early 90ies. This killed Portriga and had MCC emerge. Polywarmtone was reformulated.
We posted updates in the Polywarmtone blog. There is a first image from the new coating in the respective post.

 

[mshchem]

Correct. The Cadmium had to be removed from all european papers in the early 90ies. This killed Portriga and had MCC emerge. Polywarmtone was reformulated.
We posted updates in the Polywarmtone blog. There is a first image from the new coating in the respective post.

So the final forms of Forte Polywarmtone were free from Cadmium? Without giving away any secrets, is the challenge regulatory, suppliers, process, all of the above? There's a lot of people who want this product.
Best Regards Mike

 

[Wayne]

So the final forms of Forte Polywarmtone were free from Cadmium? Without giving away any secrets, is the challenge regulatory, suppliers, process, all of the above? There's a lot of people who want this product.
Best Regards Mike

I think the secret is having to start completely from scratch having never made it before while trying to run a profitable traditional photo business and maintain and develop other products at the same time. Its am immense amount of work. Did you read the whole blog? No doubt a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet could speed this process up exponentially. ;-)

 

[mshchem]

I think the secret is having to start completely from scratch having never made it before while trying to run a profitable traditional photo business and maintain and develop other products at the same time. Its am immense amount of work. Did you read the whole blog? No doubt a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet could speed this process up exponentially. ;-)

Yes. Theres so many new regulations, especially in the EU, California. Every chemical has to be accounted for and quantities reported. RoHS certificates, Prop 65, etc. And a company officer signs off on this stuff . If they get something wrong it can get very complicated in a hurry.
All the institutional knowledge that existed at the big companies, especially R&D, is fading away . I think Adox has a great business going. They are going to need to hit a home run to take market share from Ilford and Foma.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...There is a first image from the new coating in the respective post.

That looks quite nice Mirko. One cannot tell from the on-line image exactly how white the base is or how shiny the surface is. Would you please describe those characteristics in words, particularly with respect to how you intend the final product to appear, not just this test coating? Thank you very much in advance.

 

[Ian Grant]

Correct. The Cadmium had to be removed from all european papers in the early 90ies. This killed Portriga and had MCC emerge.

There was the re-formulated Record Rapid first, it was a while before Agfa introduced MCC, these were the only papers I used until Agfa ceased manufacture.

I don't remember seeing Polywarmtone in the UK until you began distribution, although I bought direct rather than through Nigel Dear (probably a good thing), and still have maybe 50 sheets left of the last production run all 24x20 or 20x16 which I cut down. I will be ordering more

Ian

 

[adelorenzo]

Apparently they have coated the first batch of new Polywarmtone! You'll have to follow the link to see the entire post I think.

 

[Lachlan Young]

So we should see it in 6-8 weeks I guess. Looking forward to it, especially if the contrast range is a bit wider than the Forte version.

 

[lantau]

I've seen it as well. In her stories you can see her with the pack of paper in her arm.

I wonder if that really is a production run or still a test batch.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'm not familiar with the woman in the photo is but she appears to have an impressive darkroom from her instagram feed, including a 30cm x 40cm enlarger.

 

[adelorenzo]

I'm just waiting to hear if/how it liths. Hopefully they send a box to Tim Rudman or Wolfgang Moersch for testing.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I'm just waiting to hear if/how it liths. Hopefully they send a box to Tim Rudman or Wolfgang Moersch for testing.

I think one of the issues they were having was that the emulsions would lith individually but not when built up into the multilayer coating - at least I recall Mirko making a comment to that effect. Hopefully that means that even if the core product cannot lith, then a special coating run might be possible to get one that's lith only.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I think one of the issues they were having was that the emulsions would lith individually but not when built up into the multilayer coating - at least I recall Mirko making a comment to that effect. Hopefully that means that even if the core product cannot lith, then a special coating run might be possible to get one that's lith only.

Are there any current papers that will lith print well with the classic technique? I've been saving my old boxes of Foma 532 II for the occasional lith print.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Are there any current papers that will lith print well with the classic technique? I've been saving my old boxes of Foma 532 II for the occasional lith print.

Fomatone - all the current batches as far as I know - at least with Moersch chemicals. Currently playing around with some graded Fomabrom to see if I can solve the blizzard effect.

 

[removedacct3]

I'm just waiting to hear if/how it liths. Hopefully they send a box to Tim Rudman or Wolfgang Moersch for testing.

It would not come to me as a surprise if they already have test boxes in their dark rooms.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

It would not come to me as a surprise if they already have test boxes in their dark rooms.

Lina is the only one with 25 sheets in her hands. A rough cut straight from the master roll. No edge trimming. She will not be in Florence for a few days. The remaining paper is in our van already back in Berlin. This was the zero run. More to be found here with a short and long video coming up both on ours as well as on Linas channels.
We shot great footage with Lina and her dog Bella. It was a great pleasure to have such a knowledegeable and passionate darkroom missionary with us.
I interviewed even old timers @ Ilford and it is officially confirmed that Isabella was the first dog ever inside of a coating machine.

The paper is fine and usable but we are still in the final testing stage and will not release it to the market yet.
Lithability will also have to be aproached in a second version.

"PW NEW V1" will feature:

- A natural "Polywarmtone-Warmtone" as to be expected
- The world famous Polywarmtone snap effect / unique brilliance
- The widest range of developer driven tonal change of all papers on the market (warmtone developer vs. cold tone developer use)
- A similar speed as the type (old PW)
- An improved variable grade range and controlability. Similar to MCC.
- Unfortunately not an improved safelight stability (yet) but we eliminated the pink stain problem old PW had in the end

- Mirko

The photo shows the Team which moves between Switzerland and Berlin on the Bodensee Ferryboat with the first meter of new PW in their hands.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

- Unfortunately not an improved safelight stability (yet) but we eliminated ther pink stain problem old PW had in the end

View attachment 224193

I've re-installed a red safelight (15W) in my darkroom with the intention of opening my one box of Polywarmtone, to get to know the paper again, now I know more will be available.

Tom