Foaming in film development

[RattyMouse]

Vinegar?

Vinegar=acetic acid. I use dilutions of vinegar as my stop bath.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I stopped using a stop bath, but 30 years ago that's what I used and I don't remember to have foam problems.
But, it might be a different type of vinegar.

 

[Europan]

Vinegar=acetic acid.

Oh, no. Vinegar contains 5 % of acetic acid or more, the rest is water. Acetic acid contains no water. Only for the nomenclature

Back to the foam story. CO2 is formed through the reaction of acetic acid with a stronger acid. Your developer may contain a mineral acid, boric acid out of Borax. Something similar happens when you drink a beverage that contains carbonic acid, for example beer. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach decomposes the carbonic acid and also releases some CO2. You burp.

 

[tokam]

... Something similar happens when you drink a beverage that contains carbonic acid, for example beer. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach decomposes the carbonic acid and also releases some CO2. You burp.

I always thought that burping after drinking cold soda or beer was due to the dissolved gases coming out of solution as the drink warmed up inside the stomach. :confused:

 

[RattyMouse]

I want to clean my Paterson wheels really well. Would soaking them in hydrogen peroxide be a good way to strip off any possible sources of foam?

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear RattyMouse,

Thanks for posting your results, greatly appreciate the feedback.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Europan]

That would only oxidize something. You’d need to dissolve the new compounds away, these are two essential steps with the reversal process. Bleach and clear bath. The most used clear bath is sodium sulfite in water.

From the two developer formulas you’ve spoken initially we know that one contains borax, a self-buffering acid of pH 8 ( ! ), and the other DTP acid. To countercheck your problem, use an alkaline developer instead of an acid one. That way the acetic acid of the stop bath will simply be made ineffective while doing the same to the alkaly, the so-called redox reaction. No foam

 

[PittP]

Well, may be the ordinary dishwasher will help?

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Dear RattyMouse,

Thanks for posting your results...

I think an OP request to the moderators for a thread title change would be in order too.

 

[wildbill]

Vinegar=acetic acid. I use dilutions of vinegar as my stop bath.

try water. plain old boring water. yeah, and have the mods change the thread title to Italian salad dressing ingredients.

 

[fotch]

Using water would be a good test or get some real stop bath from Ilford or Kodak.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Thread title updated.

 

[fotch]

Thread title updated.

Good idea, thank you.

 

[Dali]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but the exact same thing as RattyMouse described happens to me, with Ilford HP5 this time, both 35mm and 120 format: A LOT of foam at the development stage. The other film I use is Fomapan 100 (35mm and 120) and it NEVER happens. I switched from Tri-X to HP5 a couple a years ago and since, this is hell. I use a Paterson 2 reel tank but I cannot put 2 35mm films at the same time as the foam clearly disturb the developer flow when flipping the tank.

Whatever the film (HP5 or Foma100), I always use the same tank, the same reels, the same process (home made D-76 developer, no stop bath, Ilford Rapid Fixer, Photo-Flo, 20 minutes washing), so the only variable is the film.

Am I the only one to notice that? Is it caused by an ingredient specific to Ilford films?

 

[JerseyDoug]

I regularly develop FP4 Plus, HP5 Plus, Foma 100 and Foma 400, switching between Rodinal and Adox FX-39 depending on my target print size. I use only distilled water to dilute the developers, for a water only stop bath, to dilute the generic rapid fixer, and for the three changes of water for the Ilford method wash, and no wetting agent final rinse. I use stainless Kindermann tanks with plastic lids. None of them have ever been in contact with any wetting agent. I have never seen any foam with any combination of film and developer.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I regularly develop FP4 Plus, HP5 Plus, Foma 100 and Foma 400, switching between Rodinal and Adox FX-39 depending on my target print size. I use only distilled water to dilute the developers, for a water only stop bath, to dilute the generic rapid fixer, and for the three changes of water for the Ilford method wash, and no wetting agent final rinse. I use stainless Kindermann tanks with plastic lids. None of them have ever been in contact with any wetting agent. I have never seen any foam with any combination of film and developer.

Echoing JDoug, I have used tap water and various developers and never had the problem. With great reluctance to suggest, try tap water with a little surfactant such as PhotoFlo. If tap water causes a problem, try distilled water.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have used Ilford films forever, and I've never seen any foaming... must be the OP... who ain't here anymore.

 

[foc]

I have never had any foaming with any film, when developing.
I have seen foaming where the agitation was too vigorous and/or not enough chemical in the tank.

I see you mentioned homemade D76. Have you tried it in Kodak D76 or Ilford ID11 and got the same results?

 

[Dali]

I have never had any foaming with any film, when developing.
I have seen foaming where the agitation was too vigorous and/or not enough chemical in the tank.

I see you mentioned homemade D76. Have you tried it in Kodak D76 or Ilford ID11 and got the same results?

Nope. I use exclusively home made D-76 (even if I should have a couple of Microphen packs somewhere in a drawer). Anyway... It does not explain why it ALWAYS happens with HP5 (regardless the film format) and NEVER with Fomapan 100 (and it never happened with any other films I used by the past like Tri-X)...

 

[snusmumriken]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but the exact same thing as RattyMouse described happens to me, with Ilford HP5 this time, both 35mm and 120 format: A LOT of foam at the development stage. The other film I use is Fomapan 100 (35mm and 120) and it NEVER happens. I switched from Tri-X to HP5 a couple a years ago and since, this is hell. I use a Paterson 2 reel tank but I cannot put 2 35mm films at the same time as the foam clearly disturb the developer flow when flipping the tank.

Whatever the film (HP5 or Foma100), I always use the same tank, the same reels, the same process (home made D-76 developer, no stop bath, Ilford Rapid Fixer, Photo-Flo, 20 minutes washing), so the only variable is the film.

Am I the only one to notice that? Is it caused by an ingredient specific to Ilford films?

I only use Ilford films these days, and I don't have this problem. So I really don't believe it's the film.

In the past, when I used to mess with different films and developers, I found that sometimes the process did generate foam (though nothing comparable with the head on a beer). What I understood from reading around was that a developer with a high sodium carbonate content will foam in reaction with an acid stop bath. Like you, I gave up a stop bath for film anyway. Some very alkaline developers with foam on their own slightly under inversion agitation. But D-76 and no stop bath should be fine, and your water rinse should prevent too much carry-over into the fixer.

Try giving up Photo-Flo? Other brands are available. I use Tetenal Mirasol, which has useful anti-fungal properties too.

 

[honerich]

Harman provides its film surfaces (of the Ilford and Kentmere brands except for PanF) with an extra lubricant and wetting agent coating. This is to ensure the lowest possible friction during film transport in the camera and later the most even and fastest possible wetting by the developer. I have never had any side effects due to the typical low foaming when developing Ilford films. Possibly the water quality has an influence here, whether it foams at all. You just have to make sure that the amount of developer is not too low, i.e. not below the recommendation for the can you are using. Of course, it must also be ensured that the spiral does not slip upwards on the center column due to violent tilting.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I can't help but notice that Ilford's films, at least Delta 3200 and Delta 400 make a LOT of foam, starting with the developer and carrying forward all the way into my fixer solution. I am not a heavy agitator when doing my inversions, but when developing these two films, by the end of the developing period, there is an INTENSE amount of foam in the solution. Upon popping open my Paterson tank, foam overflows out the top and down the side, like a good beer. Huge amounts of foam. I dump the developer and add stop bath and once that's done, it comes out again with heavy foam. Finally, after processing several rolls, my fixer now is tremendously foamy. Ilford films use a totally different set of surfactants compared to Fujifilm and Kodak.

I can't help but think that foam in developers and fixers is a bad thing, yet I can't see any sign of problems. The amount of foam is just amazing. I have the lid off my tank after the final set of inversions and for the last minute can watch my developer very slowly drain down the funnel, taking the whole minute as the foam breaks so slowly. I get heavy foam regardless of whether or not I use DD-X or HC-110.

Is this foam well known to everyone here? I don't think I've seen much talk about it. I can't believe that I'm the only one with this issue. As I said, most would think that I invert much too softly but that is still enough to generate heavy heavy foam.

Thanks,

Foaming comes from too much agitation.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Foaming comes from too much agitation.

So just do not get too agitated.

 

[JerseyDoug]

Foaming comes from too much agitation.

That doesn't explain why the OP is seeing foam with some film stocks and not with others.

 

[Dali]

Harman provides its film surfaces (of the Ilford and Kentmere brands except for PanF) with an extra lubricant and wetting agent coating.

Ah! This looks like a possible explanation...