Foaming in film development

[fotch]

Maybe its the water, are you using or have you tried distilled water?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I've had to deal with the problems of foam in my chemical career for 20 years. The amount of foam that I'm getting when developing Delta 3200 is massive. When the tank lid comes off the foam gushes out and overflows.

A thought. I have used replenished developers for about eight years now. They foam considerably more than stock or diluted stock. The latest developer I'm using, Harvey's 777 Panthermic, is a bit of an exotic creature, and it discolors my stop bath to the point that the indicator stops working. I'm not sure what's in that soup, honestly, but I've started using a water rinse before my stop bath to prevent this unwanted effect.
What I've noticed is that the excess foaming that takes place in stop bath and fixer has drastically decreased. You might try that also, and see what happens. It might help your stop and fixer steps.

I wonder if the water quality in different regions of the world reacts with films in different ways. I'm sure that there are traces of contaminants in water everywhere, pH is different, mineral content, and so on. Not sure what else to think. Good luck in finding an answer.

 

[RattyMouse]

A thought. I have used replenished developers for about eight years now. They foam considerably more than stock or diluted stock. The latest developer I'm using, Harvey's 777 Panthermic, is a bit of an exotic creature, and it discolors my stop bath to the point that the indicator stops working. I'm not sure what's in that soup, honestly, but I've started using a water rinse before my stop bath to prevent this unwanted effect.
What I've noticed is that the excess foaming that takes place in stop bath and fixer has drastically decreased. You might try that also, and see what happens. It might help your stop and fixer steps.

I wonder if the water quality in different regions of the world reacts with films in different ways. I'm sure that there are traces of contaminants in water everywhere, pH is different, mineral content, and so on. Not sure what else to think. Good luck in finding an answer.

I've often thought about introducing a water rinse after dumping out my stop bath to help prevent my fixer from becoming too foamy, but ultimately never did this because I'm reluctant to change my process. It works for me real well and so change becomes hard.

I can understand how a replenished developer would develop foam as surfactant concentrations would build up over time. Since I never use replenished developers, that's not the source of my problem.

I need to do three things from here.

1. Process just water in my tank using reels. I'll "process" 1 liter of water in my tank with 2 reels. If my reels or tank are the source of foam, this water should come out very foamy.
2. I'll process my last roll of Delta 3200 from my Japan trip and photograph the opening of the tank after developing is done.
3. I'll process some TMAX 400 and photograph the foam to see the difference.

I wish I could do all this during the upcoming weekend, but I have some company travel starting tomorrow so there will be a bit of a delay. That and I have to get to the store to buy a new bottle of Ilford Rapid Fixer.

 

[Europan]

My mind has wandered to a reaction of an Ilford film element with things in the water. You’re in Shanghai.

 

[Pat Erson]

I'm reluctant to change my process.

Not conductive to finding a solution, right?

 

[RattyMouse]

My mind has wandered to a reaction of an Ilford film element with things in the water. You’re in Shanghai.

Several have brought up the idea that water may be the culprit for the foam that I am seeing. This is highly unlikely for several reasons.

1. ALL my film should foam if the water were a source of foam. This is certainly not true. As stated many times, None of these films foam when I process them: Acros, Neopan 400, TMAX 400, Tri-X, and HP5. Delta 3200 and 400 foam.

2. I specifically TEST my equipment for foam when rinsing them after washing. I use soap and water to clean all my gear EXCEPT my reels. I rinse them until NO foam is visible. No foam of any kind. I see instantaneous collapse of any foam when my tanks are clean.

Shanghai tap water is not foamy in my experience.

 

[RattyMouse]

Not conductive to finding a solution, right?

With supporting data I'll change my process very quickly.

 

[Xmas]

I can't help but think that foam in developers and fixers is a bad thing, yet I can't see any sign of problems. The amount of foam is just amazing. I have the lid off my tank after the final set of inversions and for the last minute can watch my developer very slowly drain down the funnel, taking the whole minute as the foam breaks so slowly. I get heavy foam regardless of whether or not I use DD-X or HC-110.

Is this foam well known to everyone here? I don't think I've seen much talk about it. I can't believe that I'm the only one with this issue. As I said, most would think that I invert much too softly but that is still enough to generate heavy heavy foam.

Thanks,

Don't worry foam won't hurt your film.
If you invert the critical thing is to use as little dev to cover the reels. This to get a flow of water when you invert. It is the flow of water through the tank you need.

Ignore the kodak spin bowler or slow ball pitcher technique.

 

[Europan]

RattyMouse, please read my post with attention. I am talking of an interaction of the Shanghai water with Ilford films.

It may be a wetting agent remainder or something the like in the films, activated by something in the water. Alfred Harman already dealt with foam when he poured his early emulsions with a teapot. You never know.

 

[grommi]

1. ALL my film should foam if the water were a source of foam. This is certainly not true. As stated many times, None of these films foam when I process them: Acros, Neopan 400, TMAX 400, Tri-X, and HP5. Delta 3200 and 400 foam.

Hi Ratty, I know from own experiance that it can be very annoying if you have to explain your problem again and again. On the other side I'm sure you can acknowledge as a chemist that your problem is extremely strange for many of us. Beer-type foam and only with 2 different Ilford films, that must sound very strange in the ear of someone like me who never experianced any foaming at all exept for very few bubbles when I heavily agitate the real in the open tank to see what happens. I developed hundreds of films in the same tank and only rinse very quickly with cold tap water for cleaning and never had the slightest foam problem, including some Delta 3200. So, to be honest, I have no clue at all what is happening to you. Still I can't imagine that the films are to blame.

It's like saying, my schnitzels don't become done, but only the pork schnitzels from butcher Miller and not the other schnitzels from him and not those of all other butchers. I hope you don't feel offended by this comparison, it's not my intention at all.

Best - grommi

 

[MartinP]

The "obvious" conclusion would be that there is a combination of factors at work. So the Ilford films plus something else - water, wind-direction*, phase of the moon* etc. One way to control for the tap-water is to replace it with distilled water and see what the results are then, so that would be my recommendation for the next test (Ilford Delta film, but not using irreplaceable rolls of course). It's both an interesting problem and a mystery. On the positive side, at least the results are currently acceptable!




* Not entirely seriously

 

[fotch]

Well, logic has not solved the problem so far so maybe try distilled water just to eliminate the possibility that Shanghai water reacts only to that film.

 

[Francesco_from_Rome]

Just to add another (anecdotal) data point, I developed a 35mm roll of delta 3200 in id-11. All the chemicals were mixed with tap water. I have never seen, in my limited experience, a clearer development. No foam at all, clear chemicals without any "colour discharge" in the water (which I've seen with other ilford or Fuji films, and which goes away with washing). I use ilford recommended washing technique. The end results is a clear base, seemingly well developed negative.
I hope that you'll be able to figure out a reason for what you are observing and keep us informed.

 

[RattyMouse]

Just to add another (anecdotal) data point, I developed a 35mm roll of delta 3200 in id-11. All the chemicals were mixed with tap water. I have never seen, in my limited experience, a clearer development. No foam at all, clear chemicals without any "colour discharge" in the water (which I've seen with other ilford or Fuji films, and which goes away with washing). I use ilford recommended washing technique. The end results is a clear base, seemingly well developed negative.
I hope that you'll be able to figure out a reason for what you are observing and keep us informed.

Today I'm able to get out to the store to buy a new bottle of Ilford Rapid Fixer, so developing will commence soon!

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I'm wondering how to you develop the film in the tank: do you shake the tank like a cocktail, just rotate the spindle or do you do the Ilford inversions? Do you act "fast and furious" or gently?

 

[Chris Livsey]

I'm wondering how to you develop the film in the tank: do you shake the tank like a cocktail, just rotate the spindle or do you do the Ilford inversions? Do you act "fast and furious" or gently?

Surely that would affect all film types, the OP reports Ilford only?

Has the OP contacted Ilford to ask, and he has a chemical background, what surfactants, if any, are in their films, do they vary between emulsions, are they aware of any "bad" water interactions.
Has the OP tried DI water for all steps involved in the process, wash excepted as it is not at that stage? (If he has I apologise, this thread is rather repetitive and I admit to skipping)

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm wondering how to you develop the film in the tank: do you shake the tank like a cocktail, just rotate the spindle or do you do the Ilford inversions? Do you act "fast and furious" or gently?

When the chemical is first poured in, I thump the tank on a thick rubber pad several times to release the bubbles. Then I invert the tank smoothly with a turn of the wrist and back two or three times. Repeat every thirty seconds.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Pretty much the same here, Sirius. Except it is 4 inversions for 10 sec every minute. That's how I learned.

 

[Francesco_from_Rome]

Pretty much the same here, Sirius. Except it is 4 inversions for 10 sec every minute. That's how I learned.

I do it the same: I learned on the Ilford document on processing your first roll and since it worked fine, I never changed even when developing other brands.

Francesco

 

[RattyMouse]

Dear Rattymouse,

I await foam feedback

Simon.

Simon,

I can conclusively say that neither Ilford Delta 3200 or Delta 400 are the source of my foam problems. My early experiences really pointed towards these films as being the cause of foam in my developing fluids but further work has shown this not to be the case.

I'm sure it is not a surprise to you or anyone at Ilford that I was mistaken to note Ilford film as being too foamy, but I owed it to you and everyone who has read this thread to close that part of the story with certainty.

So there you go!

Regards,

RM

 

[MartinP]

Now the mystery becomes even more mysterious?! Well done for persevering with your investigation btw.

 

[Simonh82]

What was the culprit into the end? Do you know, or is it just a case of eliminating the film as the cause?

 

[RattyMouse]

What was the culprit into the end? Do you know, or is it just a case of eliminating the film as the cause?

Still unsure what the cause is. If film is part of the reason why I have foam, it is a secondary reason, not the primary one. The main culprit is either the vinegar that I use to make the stop bath or my reels, which might not be as clean as I think that they are.

Strangely enough, when I shake up my bottle of vinegar, there is visible foam that's not stable, but clearly far more than I would have expected.

My reels get rinsed for 2-3 minutes under 60 C water after done developing. They sure look free of any surfactant after such a rinse but perhaps I am missing something.

 

[Rick A]

I wonder how many will return and read the post that declares it isn't the film, and continue to propagate the false info on line.

 

[peter k.]

I wonder how many will return and read the post that declares it isn't the film, and continue to propagate the false info on line.

Ha... There are those still surprised that you can buy FILM, or ask what is it?