First SLR

xkaes · Mar 29, 2023

I'm not a Pentax user, and EBAY has about 750 Pentax K1000 cameras listed right now. They mostly start at around $40 without a lens and go up into the several hundred dollar range. This seller claims to have sold over 1,100 of them for over $200:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392193679226

That being said, I got a Minolta MAXXUM 5 last night -- like new -- with a Minolta 28-100mm zoom AND a Minolta 70-300mm zoom for $23.

I can't fathom why someone would pay $40 for a K1000 without a lens over a MAXXUM 5 with a lens for half the price -- let alone $200+++. Or even an KX for $40 -- well, maybe with a lens!

I guess P.T. Barnum is still laughing!

Radost · Mar 29, 2023

xkaes said:
I'm not a Pentax user, and EBAY has about 750 Pentax K1000 cameras listed right now. They mostly start at around $40 without a lens and go up into the several hundred dollar range. This seller claims to have sold over 1,100 of them for over $200:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392193679226

That being said, I got a Minolta MAXXUM 5 last night -- like new -- with a Minolta 28-100mm zoom AND a Minolta 70-300mm zoom for $23.

I can't fathom why someone would pay $40 for a K1000 without a lens over a MAXXUM 5 with a lens for half the price -- let alone $200+++. Or even an KX for $40 -- well, maybe with a lens!

I guess P.T. Barnum is still laughing!

100%
You can get a Minolta 50mm F1.4 lens and have arguably the best lens and camera combo in the history of the cameras. And it is so small and lite.

Autonerd · Mar 29, 2023

MattKing said:
The relative quality of the various models is almost irrelevant when one considers why the K1000 became a recommended standard.

Having taken Photo 101 in that era (1990)... the K1000 was recommended to us because it was the cheapest to buy either new or used. Our exact irequirement, IIRC, was a manual-focus, manual-exposure camera with a 50mm lens. (I can't remember if we were allowed to use otherwise-manual cameras with an automatic mode, but I don't think so.) At that point, again IIRC, the Pentax K1000 was the only new option. Pentax was selling the P30t for around the same price, but that had an automatic mode. The preferred method of procurement, as I recall, was to get a manual camera from a relative (as I did), but for those who couldn't, it was the Beetle. Also, the teacher pointed out that there were a lot of used K1000s from students who had Photo 101 as a requirement.

MattKing said:
The K1000 was well suited to the needs of the education systems that used it, and the educators who taught with it.

I disagree. The KX I had was a much better choice, mostly because of the DOF preview, since we didn't have to wait until after development to see how that worked. A match-needle display like the KX's is much better for learning than a center-the-needle display, since you can see your selected speed in the viewfinder. (KX showed aperture, but mine never worked.) Lastly, unlike the K1000, with a KX you can't drain the battery merely by forgetting to put the lens cap back on.

I can think of all manner of cameras that are better suited to a Photo 101 class than the K1000: Besides my beloved KX, there's the Minolta SRT-101, Nikon FM, Ricoh XR-1, Pentax Spotmatic F, and some Canon or another. Problem is, by the early 1990s, you couldn't buy them new, and even used they were often more expensive than a used (or even a new) K1000.

Forgive me, but I've had a bad day and I love arguing about this stuff.

Aaron

MattKing · Mar 30, 2023

Autonerd said:
Having taken Photo 101 in that era (1990)... the K1000 was recommended to us because it was the cheapest to buy either new or used. Our exact irequirement, IIRC, was a manual-focus, manual-exposure camera with a 50mm lens. (I can't remember if we were allowed to use otherwise-manual cameras with an automatic mode, but I don't think so.) At that point, again IIRC, the Pentax K1000 was the only new option. Pentax was selling the P30t for around the same price, but that had an automatic mode. The preferred method of procurement, as I recall, was to get a manual camera from a relative (as I did), but for those who couldn't, it was the Beetle. Also, the teacher pointed out that there were a lot of used K1000s from students who had Photo 101 as a requirement.

I disagree. The KX I had was a much better choice, mostly because of the DOF preview, since we didn't have to wait until after development to see how that worked. A match-needle display like the KX's is much better for learning than a center-the-needle display, since you can see your selected speed in the viewfinder. (KX showed aperture, but mine never worked.) Lastly, unlike the K1000, with a KX you can't drain the battery merely by forgetting to put the lens cap back on.

I can think of all manner of cameras that are better suited to a Photo 101 class than the K1000: Besides my beloved KX, there's the Minolta SRT-101, Nikon FM, Ricoh XR-1, Pentax Spotmatic F, and some Canon or another. Problem is, by the early 1990s, you couldn't buy them new, and even used they were often more expensive than a used (or even a new) K1000.

Forgive me, but I've had a bad day and I love arguing about this stuff.

Aaron

It is true that if I was sitting in the appropriate chair in the appropriate office either in Pentax's premises or in the appropriate places in the education world, I would have advocated for a camera with a couple of more features than the K1000.
But they didn't give me that job.
The things that made the K1000 suitable are mostly related to its relatively robust nature, its simplicity, its adaptability (because of the lens mount), its distribution, its marketing and its price.
Those are the things that address "needs" when it comes to the world of education.

Radost · Mar 30, 2023

MattKing said:
It is true that if I was sitting in the appropriate chair in the appropriate office either in Pentax's premises or in the appropriate places in the education world, I would have advocated for a camera with a couple of more features than the K1000.
But they didn't give me that job.
The things that made the K1000 suitable are mostly related to its relatively robust nature, its simplicity, its adaptability (because of the lens mount), its distribution, its marketing and its price.
Those are the things that address "needs" when it comes to the world of education.

Actually any modern cheaper auto focus camera is better and cheaper than older SLRs

removedacct2 · Mar 30, 2023

138bb said:
I’ve decided to increase a bit my budget as many of the cameras you recommended are more on the 70/100€ range in Spain.
I checked ebay but shipping costs are way too expensive so I would pay almost the same (if not more).

I found a Minolta SRT 101 in mint condition, I think I’m gonna go with that.

What about milanuncios and if you are in a big enough city maybe some old photo shop still active?
Anyway Minolta can take M42 lenses with an adapter but if you buy a native M42 camera you spare that. Alternatively a K-mount body.
Prakticas as old as the IV have slow speeds contrary to the Zenits and are reliable, should be cheap, but no 1/1000 and no meter.
Old heavy and squarrish Ricohs in silver body should also be cheap and are reliable.
Also the Fujica ST serie.
In Europe some german and japanese manufacturers did sell cheap rebranded models to big mail order companies like german Foto-Quelle, So if you see cameras with unknown brand name like Revue you can have a good M42 or K-mount to start with. The other big retailer was Porst with cameras under names Carena and Porst.
In K-mount there is also Cosina that sold well in Europe.
The Zenit-122 is an alternative, nice viewfinder and focusing but no 1/1000 speed. Lack of slow speeds is not a big problem handheld most of the time, depends your hability to shot without shake at 1/8 and 1/15. Cell circuitry is prone to fault on the 122 and can drain batteries fast. Zenit-122 are overpriced in Europe but if found cheap is an ok option.

xkaes · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
I'm not a Pentax user, and EBAY has about 750 Pentax K1000 cameras listed right now. They mostly start at around $40 without a lens and go up into the several hundred dollar range. This seller claims to have sold over 1,100 of them for over $200:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392193679226

That being said, I got a Minolta MAXXUM 5 last night -- like new -- with a Minolta 28-100mm zoom AND a Minolta 70-300mm zoom for $23.

There are a ton of old cameras. Nearly every one of them THAT WORKS costs more than $23.

I just checked and there is, right now, ANOTHER Minolta MAXXUM 5 -- like new -- on EBAY . It comes with a Minolta 28-100mm zoom AND a Minolta 70-300mm zoom for $25.

I'd put in a bid, but my limit is $23.

Why buy old stuff when you can get MUCH newer stuff -- with MORE & newer features -- for MUCH less?????

Autonerd · Mar 30, 2023

MattKing said:
The things that made the K1000 suitable are mostly related to its relatively robust nature, its simplicity, its adaptability (because of the lens mount), its distribution, its marketing and its price.
Those are the things that address "needs" when it comes to the world of education.

The way it was explained to us Back In The Day, the sole reason for its recommendation was that it was fully manual and readily available. Again, as I recall, our professors' primary recommendation was a used all-manual camera with more features. K1000 was the less-preferred choice.

But, hey, what do I know -- I only took my (uncompleted) art minor in the early 90s in Rochester, NY, home of Kodak.

Aaron

Autonerd · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
Why buy old stuff when you can get MUCH newer stuff -- with MORE & newer features -- for MUCH less?????

Because for many of us, fiddling with the controls on those old cameras is part of the fun of film photography. And because, unlike digital, newer technology has little to no effect on the quality of photos (provided one knows what one is doing).

I own several AF cameras (Nikon N8008, Minolta Maxxum 400si, 5, 5000). They're great cameras that (almost) always nail the shot, and there are situations (fast-moving subjects like photographing animals) that I really like them -- but aside from that I don't use them often. I find them a bit boring -- to me, using them feels too much like shooting digital. I always seem to wind up with more boring photos than when I use my manual cameras.

Of that group, while the Maxxum 5 is undoubtedly the most feature-rich, I tend to gravitate towards the Nikon -- the lithium batteries in the newer Minoltas really drive up the per-shot cost (especially since the cameras sit between uses). The N8008 uses plain ol' AAs. Much cheaper and I can use the batteries elsewhere.

They certainly are affordable -- I paid $17 for the 5 (w/ lens), $12 for the 400si (body), $0 for the 5000 (w/ lens) and $100 for the N8008 with 4 lenses (3 zooms and a 50/1.4). For me, though, film photography is more about the process than the results, and I get much greater enjoyment from my Sears KS Auto (aka Ricoh XR-2s, $15 w/ 50/1.7 lens).

Aaron

KerrKid · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
There are a ton of old cameras. Nearly every one of them THAT WORKS costs more than $23.

I just checked and there is, right now, ANOTHER Minolta MAXXUM 5 -- like new -- on EBAY . It comes with a Minolta 28-100mm zoom AND a Minolta 70-300mm zoom for $25.

I'd put in a bid, but my limit is $23.

Why buy old stuff when you can get MUCH newer stuff -- with MORE & newer features -- for MUCH less?????

I'm going to a big vintage motorcycle show and races on Saturday. Of all the cameras I'm considering taking, the N75's are at the top of the list and not my vintage Minolta's, Pentaxes, Nikons, Konicas, Ricohs, etc. Why? Because I know, from a functional standpoint, the N75 will work better than anything else I have. It's super light, has every feature I could want, has modern batteries, a meter that works, a good zoom lens, etc. I love my vintage stuff but the N75 makes more sense most of the time. For me. Ditto the N80 which is being delivered today.

I'll stick with my Nikons since I have so many, but the Maxxum 5 is a similar value for anyone who wants to head in that direction.

I'd say get a camera like these first and then start your collection of vintage cameras.

Huss · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
Why buy old stuff when you can get MUCH newer stuff -- with MORE & newer features -- for MUCH less?????

Because sometimes people want a traditional looking, metal, mechanical camera. If that is what they want, then...

Don't get me wrong, as a tool to nail the shot, those plastic AF slrs are way better. My N80s are much better cameras than my Nikon F2s or F3 if the goal is to get the best shot in the least amount of time with the least effort. But for some it is not ease of use etc, but the process of getting there. And I do not fault that.

Huss · Mar 30, 2023

KerrKid said:
I'm going to a big vintage motorcycle show and races on Saturday. Of all the cameras I'm considering taking, the N75's are at the top of the list and not my vintage Minolta's, Pentaxes, Nikons, Konicas, Ricohs, etc. Why? Because I know, from a functional standpoint, the N75 will work better than anything else I have. It's super light, has every feature I could want, has modern batteries, a meter that works, a good zoom lens, etc. I love my vintage stuff but the N75 makes more sense most of the time. For me. Ditto the N80 which is being delivered today.

I'll stick with my Nikons since I have so many, but the Maxxum 5 is a similar value for anyone who wants to head in that direction.

I'd say get a camera like these first and then start your collection of vintage cameras.

Yup. And the beautiful thing about the AF Nikon slrs is unlike the Minoltas, the same lenses used on an older manual focus Nikon SLR can be used on the AF Nikon.
Nikon ensured that compatibility by sticking with the F mount. The only other mfg to do that with mf and af lenses is Pentax.

Alan Edward Klein · Mar 30, 2023

Huss said:
Because sometimes people want a traditional looking, metal, mechanical camera. If that is what they want, then...

Don't get me wrong, as a tool to nail the shot, those plastic AF slrs are way better. My N80s are much better cameras than my Nikon F2s or F3 if the goal is to get the best shot in the least amount of time with the least effort. But for some it is not ease of use etc, but the process of getting there. And I do not fault that.

Autonerd said:
Because for many of us, fiddling with the controls on those old cameras is part of the fun of film photography. And because, unlike digital, newer technology has little to no effect on the quality of photos (provided one knows what one is doing).

I own several AF cameras (Nikon N8008, Minolta Maxxum 400si, 5, 5000). They're great cameras that (almost) always nail the shot, and there are situations (fast-moving subjects like photographing animals) that I really like them -- but aside from that I don't use them often. I find them a bit boring -- to me, using them feels too much like shooting digital. I always seem to wind up with more boring photos than when I use my manual cameras.

Of that group, while the Maxxum 5 is undoubtedly the most feature-rich, I tend to gravitate towards the Nikon -- the lithium batteries in the newer Minoltas really drive up the per-shot cost (especially since the cameras sit between uses). The N8008 uses plain ol' AAs. Much cheaper and I can use the batteries elsewhere.

They certainly are affordable -- I paid $17 for the 5 (w/ lens), $12 for the 400si (body), $0 for the 5000 (w/ lens) and $100 for the N8008 with 4 lenses (3 zooms and a 50/1.4). For me, though, film photography is more about the process than the results, and I get much greater enjoyment from my Sears KS Auto (aka Ricoh XR-2s, $15 w/ 50/1.7 lens).

Aaron

I have a N6006 Nikon that you can get with lens under $50.. It does require it;s own charger unlike the N8008 but my camera is accurate and perfectly working to this day. Auto focus, manual focus, flash, metering, electronic shutter, bracketing, PASM modes, etc.

n6006 nikon - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

Sounds not included with camera.

Autonerd · Mar 30, 2023

KerrKid said:
I'm going to a big vintage motorcycle show and races on Saturday. Of all the cameras I'm considering taking, the N75's are at the top of the list and not my vintage Minolta's, Pentaxes, Nikons, Konicas, Ricohs, etc.

I think that's a good choice -- although I did try shooting a little action at Goodwood with my KX, and it wasn't a total disaster. This was on FP4, and the lens was either a 105 or 135.

Aaron

xkaes · Mar 30, 2023

Autonerd said:
Because for many of us, fiddling with the controls on those old cameras is part of the fun of film photography.

Aaron

That's great. I like fiddling too, but this thread is to help someone out who wants to buy a FIRST serious camera. If you think that means something he should fiddle with, recommend a violin.

xkaes · Mar 30, 2023

Huss said:
Because sometimes people want a traditional looking, metal, mechanical camera. If that is what they want, then...

Sounds like you should recommend an Argus C3 to the OP.

Huss · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
Sounds like you should recommend an Argus C3 to the OP.

Pay attention, the OP wants an SLR.

Huss · Mar 30, 2023

138bb said:
Hi, guys! New user here.

I’m looking for an SLR for beginners. I want to learn how to use a manual camera...

xkaes said:
That's great. I like fiddling too, but this thread is to help someone out who wants to buy a FIRST serious camera. If you think that means something he should fiddle with, recommend a violin.

KerrKid · Mar 30, 2023

Autonerd said:
I think that's a good choice -- although I did try shooting a little action at Goodwood with my KX, and it wasn't a total disaster. This was on FP4, and the lens was either a 105 or 135.

View attachment 334262

View attachment 334263

Aaron

Nice pix. I'm jealous. I should put Goodwood on my bucket list.

KerrKid · Mar 30, 2023

He's says he wants a mechanical camera, but does he really? How many times in life have we thought we wanted something, gotten it, and then found out it wasn't what we wanted after all? Her name was Charlotte, by the way.

Huss · Mar 30, 2023

KerrKid said:
He's says he wants a mechanical camera, but does he really? How many times in life have we thought we wanted something, gotten it, and then found out it wasn't what we wanted after all? Her name was Charlotte, by the way.

Yeah, but when that's what they want, you then try to point them to the best version of that.

My $20 N80 is a way better camera than my old Nikon Fs, F2, F3. Try and convince someone that. I'd say it is also a better camera than my new Leica M6, if the goal is to just nail the shot. 95% of the time the N80 would be a better tool for that than the M6.

The upside is I actually find the N80 very enjoyable to use because it doesn't have any goofy menus, weird pictograms etc. And it looks nice in black - professional like similar to an F100, not some tacky plasticky silvery look. Nikon designed some cameras really well, where if they were sold now as new, they would seem to be a current design.

Anyway, the point being if Charlotte wants that metal mechanical experience, we should steer her to the best version of that for her budget. If she gets a Nikon or Pentax, she can later for very little money ($20-$30) can get an AF camera that will work with those same lenses to see how things can also be. Without having to buy into a different system.

If she got a Minolta or Canon, none of her lenses would work on AF versions of those cameras, as the lens mounts are completely different.

KerrKid · Mar 30, 2023

Huss said:
Yeah, but when that's what they want, you then try to point them to the best version of that.

My $20 N80 is a way better camera than my old Nikon Fs, F2, F3. Try and convince someone that. I'd say it is also a better camera than my new Leica M6, if the goal is to just nail the shot. 95% of the time the N80 would be a better tool for that than the M6.

The upside is I actually find the N80 very enjoyable to use because it doesn't have any goofy menus, weird pictograms etc. And it looks nice in black - professional like similar to an F100, not some tacky plasticky silvery look. Nikon designed some cameras really well, where if they were sold now as new, they would seem to be a current design.

Anyway, the point being if Charlotte wants that metal mechanical experience, we should steer her to the best version of that for her budget. If she gets a Nikon or Pentax, she can later for very little money ($20-$30) can get an AF camera that will work with those same lenses to see how things can also be. Without having to buy into a different system.

If she got a Minolta or Canon, none of her lenses would work on AF versions of those cameras, as the lens mounts are completely different.

I was making a reference to divorce and my ex.))

Yeh, I think we've done a fairly good job of steering the OP to a good choice since he's considering an SRT-101. Maybe not the "best" choice against a Nikon or Pentax, but one that I made in his shoes many years ago and don't regret.

I was just making a point that sometimes what we think we want is not what we want. We just don't have the experience to know it, yet, and that's when people who do have that experience come in handy in guiding us.

cliveh · Mar 30, 2023

xkaes said:
Why buy old stuff when you can get MUCH newer stuff -- with MORE & newer features -- for MUCH less?????

Technological and chronological progression does not always equate to something better. In many instances it can reach an optimum and then decline. The advent of marketing taking over digital photography is a good example.

Lucius · Mar 30, 2023

Zenits and Prakticas have the m42 mount, and this is a good system to try out film photography (reasonably unexpensive and a lot of lenses to choose from). However, I would recommend against Zenits and Prakticas: they have dim viewfinders, and while they could be reliable, they are far from smooth. The best budget option is the Fujica ST605 and ST605n: in the UK these sell for about £20 in full working order. The only issue is that the Fujinon 55mm f2.2 lenses they often come with tend to fall to pieces, so be prepared to buy a lens separately (of look for a body with a different lens). A slightly more expensive and rarer option would be the Chinon CM-3 (perhaps up to £30). The earlier Chinon models (such as CS and CX, as well as different rebrands) can be cheaper (around £15) and are pretty reliable, but are heavier and have dimmer viewfinders. There are less common options like the Cosina CSM/CSL/CSR, but these may be less reliable, though if the seller guaranties its working condition, I would pick one over the other options (for up to £30). Make sure the seller can vouch for the camera both working mechanically and having a functional light-meter.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 30, 2023

I second cliveh. I'd recommend a Pentax K1000, but you probably won't find a decent, clean working one for that price... Why the K1000? Because is very basic, and it is what I learnt photography on. We also use them in the photography program I teach. I have 50 of them, and all working beautifully, even though they are used almost daily.

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