First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[Agulliver]

When Ilford made colour film in the 50s and 60s, it was with the help of ICI who were a *massive* international chemical company at the time. When they later briefly marketed E6 and C41 film, it was with the aid of Sakura....who you may know better as Konica. They may have also offered rebranded Agfa E6 film. Whether as Ilford or Harman, the company, known as either Ilford or Harman, have never made colour film without the support of another, much bigger, company. And it's highly unlikely that anyone involved in the Sakura-aided venture is still there anyway. The ICI stuff was a process more akin to the pre-C22 Agfa colour films and is of no relevance to work on a C41 film.

Other than the fact that they make XP2 which has a little relevance to colour C41 film production....Harman have started from scratch and produced something in under 12 months that isn't good in all circumstances, but which has a certain charm. It is a functional colour film, which in itself is quite the achievement. The only way they can continue R&D on this film is to have it funded, and they've chosen to achieve this by selling the unperfected versions(s). Each box has a link to a survey you can take to offer opinions on what you like, and don't like about Phoenix.

 

[pentaxuser]

When Ilford made colour film in the 50s and 60s, it was with the help of ICI who were a *massive* international chemical company at the time. When they later briefly marketed E6 and C41 film, it was with the aid of Sakura....who you may know better as Konica. They may have also offered rebranded Agfa E6 film. Whether as Ilford or Harman, the company, known as either Ilford or Harman, have never made colour film without the support of another, much bigger, company. And it's highly unlikely that anyone involved in the Sakura-aided venture is still there anyway. The ICI stuff was a process more akin to the pre-C22 Agfa colour films and is of no relevance to work on a C41 film.

Other than the fact that they make XP2 which has a little relevance to colour C41 film production....Harman have started from scratch and produced something in under 12 months that isn't good in all circumstances, but which has a certain charm. It is a functional colour film, which in itself is quite the achievement. The only way they can continue R&D on this film is to have it funded, and they've chosen to achieve this by selling the unperfected versions(s). Each box has a link to a survey you can take to offer opinions on what you like, and don't like about Phoenix.

Your second paragraph sounds like an accurate summary of what I see as Harman's position in the matter of its colour film. Agulliver

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

Other than the fact that they make XP2 which has a little relevance to colour C41 film production

It has huge relevance - XP2's emulsions and couplers are what underpins Phoenix - XP2 uses a mix of CMY couplers, not just a single colour coupler. The XP films seem to have originally been conceived to lead to in-house C-41 colour materials back in the 80's (which never happened) - same with Delta technology emulsions.

Modifying XP2 emulsions to deliver the right contrast for when the masking couplers are eventually added, separating the CMY couplers and relevant dye sensitisations into the right layers (and altering one - currently unclear if this meant choosing a different one, or it being made for the purpose) and making the yellow filter later dye seems to have been the route from XP2 Super to Phoenix.

Next step seems to be making and ballasting the masking dyes to the relevant layers. After that, things will get more complex as decisions will have to be made about how best to improve the granularity (epitaxial Delta emulsions and/ or more layers, most likely)

 

[pentaxuser]

Just out of curiosity, Lachlan. what's your view as to the timescale likely to be needed to get Phoenix to that point at which it is at or close to Kodak colour film?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[pbromaghin]

That can't be right. This would amount to GBP 50k revenue per employee per year. That's abysmal by any standard and they wouldn't have survived.

Their annual figures from 2022 show revenues of GBP 28.5m and a net operating profit after taxes of GBP 2.8m. The report is also explicit on staff, which was just shy of 200 (so @pentaxuser is correct above), constituting a total cost of around GBP7.5m. This seems quite consistent with average salaries in the UK, suggesting many of the staff are production personnel being paid a little less than average, and/or some of them may be working on a part-time basis.

In any case, it boils down to a much more sensible ca. GBP 140k revenue per employee per year, which seems to me quite normal for a manufacturing company this size, although you generally see somewhat higher turnovers (and profitability) at this complexity level.

I think you’re right. Remembering looking it up a couple years ago, the numbers didn’t seem right when I found them.

 

[BAC1967]

Has anyone tried to shoot this film redscale?

 

[koraks]

Has anyone tried to shoot this film redscale?

No, not me (yet). Interesting thought though.

 

[blee1996]

I like the color palette of Phoenix 200 shot at ISO 100, bright early summer day in San Francisco, blue sky and sandstone architecture. Taken with Cosina CX-2 camera, home developed in Bellini C41 kit. Resolution and sharpness is not there yet, but could work for certain scenarios.

 

[koraks]

Oof! Oomph!!

 

[AnselMortensen]

Beautiful, @blee1996 !
Wait...You went to the Palace of Fine Arts and you were able to leave with your camera? Lucky you!

 

[blee1996]

We had a conference with both the SF mayor and district attorney showing up as speaker, so no crime was allowed for 3 days.

But on a more serious note, the Presidio area is really safe and beautiful.

 

[Agulliver]

I shot my second roll. This time the local lab couldn't scan them at all and I ended up doing it at home on an ancient Epson V series flatbed. I am happy with the results though. These were shot in a compact camera, Konica Z-up 140 Super. The rest of the film was shot using the flash at a party and I'm not posting here as the people involved might not all be OK with it....but they also came out surprisingly well with a little tweaking of the white balance.

Phoenix is usable. High contrast and a bit weird but usable. If they can improve on it and get the orange mask, it will be even more viable.

 

[koraks]

Those look nice @Agulliver. The blue skies in the last one remind me of something like first generation Kodachrome.

 

[Disconnekt]

Found these listings earlier today, looks like Harman Phoenix in 120 may be coming soon-ish

 

[Dustin McAmera]

And they are doing hinty things at Instagram again:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C_QfXcfufwL/

 

[JParker]

And they are doing hinty things at Instagram again:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C_QfXcfufwL/

Looks like they will also offer it 120 format.
Certainly the right step.

 

[Randy Stewart]

To what I remember, Foma did produce some color films. Dunno if it was Orwo that produced it.

Here's the problem. The film sucks. The fact that Ilford honestly warns you that it fails to perform by nearly every measure normally used to evaluate color negative film does not change the objective fact that it sucks. Ilford has now marketed the film for so long that the assumption that they were just selling off the trial run of an unfinished film product is no longer tenable. Phoenix is now being handled as a normal, ongoing film product, which is ridiculous, although there is nothing forcing anyone to buy it. Classify Phoenix under the category defined by PT Barnum: There's a sucker born every minute.

 

[warden]

Here's the problem. The film sucks.….. Ilford has now marketed the film for so long that the assumption that they were just selling off the trial run of an unfinished film product is no longer tenable.

The film has been available for less than one year. I don’t know how much they made in the trial of course, but if few are buying it would take time to sell. A year is not out of the question. It makes sense to make 120 as well while concurrently developing version 2.0 of the product. The more people that try v1 the larger the cohort to convert to v2.

Phoenix is now being handled as a normal, ongoing film product, which is ridiculous, although there is nothing forcing anyone to buy it.

You’re not a customer. (Neither am I.) No problem there. Some people like it and are willing to pay for it now, warts and all. No problem there either. The film is likely to improve over time, and maybe one day I’ll buy some.

 

[cmacd123]

that might expalin the facebook post about "size maters"

 

[Angarian]

Looks like they will also offer it 120 format.
Certainly the right step.

That would be really great.
Fingers crossed!

 

[ChrisGalway]

Here's the problem. The film sucks. The fact that Ilford honestly warns you that it fails to perform by nearly every measure normally used to evaluate color negative film does not change the objective fact that it sucks. Ilford has now marketed the film for so long that the assumption that they were just selling off the trial run of an unfinished film product is no longer tenable. Phoenix is now being handled as a normal, ongoing film product, which is ridiculous, although there is nothing forcing anyone to buy it. Classify Phoenix under the category defined by PT Barnum: There's a sucker born every minute.

Finally, the voice of sanity! You are 100% correct.

 

[Agulliver]

Here's the problem. The film sucks. The fact that Ilford honestly warns you that it fails to perform by nearly every measure normally used to evaluate color negative film does not change the objective fact that it sucks. Ilford has now marketed the film for so long that the assumption that they were just selling off the trial run of an unfinished film product is no longer tenable. Phoenix is now being handled as a normal, ongoing film product, which is ridiculous, although there is nothing forcing anyone to buy it. Classify Phoenix under the category defined by PT Barnum: There's a sucker born every minute.

Oh boy, where do I even start with this?

Phoenix is what it is....a work in progress. It doesn't "suck" because it does exactly what it's claimed to do. Harman aren't claiming it's some funky, retro, product or that is a finalised long term offering. Jeez, it's been on the market for 9 months. that's hardly a "normal, ongoing film product". They're not claiming it's anything like a normal colour film either. It performs exactly as they claim it does. Dog food doesn't suck because you have a cat. 120 film doesn't suck because you shoot only 35mm.

We know they're working on the next iteration, which should hopefully be a tangible step closer to "normal" C41 colour film which is the stated goal. the fact that with Phoenix, they accidentally hit on something just about good enough to sell to those with a more experimental mind is a happy piece of luck.

There's no Lomography style hyping this as some deliberately retro or deliberately weird film. Harman are totally transparent about it being a step along a journey, and an imperfect one. But those of us who have actually used the stuff have found that in the right circumstances it is capable of results that can either be decent colour photographs or artistic experiments.

It's certainly not a film that everyone will enjoy or even find a use for. I have only bought and shot two rolls and I don't know that I'll buy more - though I did have fun with those two rolls and got nice photos from each...and some duds.

the Facebook and Instagram post does suggest that they're going to offer another size of Phoenix, and 120 is the most logical - though predictably people on social media are demanding obscure sheet sizes. I do hope that this coincides with a measurable and observable improvement in the film too. Though there are also people who love Phoenix so much that they're going to cry if it's replaced by "Phoenix V1.2".

 

[Agulliver]

Finally, the voice of sanity! You are 100% correct.

Nice to know you think those of us who enjoyed using Phoneix are insane.

 

[Angarian]

Oh boy, where do I even start with this?

Phoenix is what it is....a work in progress. It doesn't "suck" because it does exactly what it's claimed to do. Harman aren't claiming it's some funky, retro, product or that is a finalised long term offering. Jeez, it's been on the market for 9 months. that's hardly a "normal, ongoing film product". They're not claiming it's anything like a normal colour film either. It performs exactly as they claim it does. Dog food doesn't suck because you have a cat. 120 film doesn't suck because you shoot only 35mm.

We know they're working on the next iteration, which should hopefully be a tangible step closer to "normal" C41 colour film which is the stated goal. the fact that with Phoenix, they accidentally hit on something just about good enough to sell to those with a more experimental mind is a happy piece of luck.

There's no Lomography style hyping this as some deliberately retro or deliberately weird film. Harman are totally transparent about it being a step along a journey, and an imperfect one. But those of us who have actually used the stuff have found that in the right circumstances it is capable of results that can either be decent colour photographs or artistic experiments.

It's certainly not a film that everyone will enjoy or even find a use for. I have only bought and shot two rolls and I don't know that I'll buy more - though I did have fun with those two rolls and got nice photos from each...and some duds.

the Facebook and Instagram post does suggest that they're going to offer another size of Phoenix, and 120 is the most logical - though predictably people on social media are demanding obscure sheet sizes. I do hope that this coincides with a measurable and observable improvement in the film too. Though there are also people who love Phoenix so much that they're going to cry if it's replaced by "Phoenix V1.2".

I can completely agree.
Harman is offering an option: The customer can support Harman's efforts to produce a good color film in the long run. And we urgently need more color films and more competition on the color film market. The Kodak color film monopoly is definitely not good for the market and us customers.

Or the customer decides not to buy the film. No one is forced to buy it. And those who prefer their Ilford BW films, can just continue to use them.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Nice to know you think those of us who enjoyed using Phoneix are insane.

I did not say that. Randy pointed out the obvious, whereas this thread seems full of people unable to admit the truth, that Phoenix is a low-quality film with terrible colour H&D curves and other defects (e.g. halos). Yes, some people like those defects ... that's fine ... but they are defects nonetheless.

It would be great if the 120 version was a greatly improved iteration, but I'm not holding my breath on that.