First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[AnselMortensen]

Nice work, those images show the film's unique, saturated color rendition.

 

[Agulliver]

The second batch must be out as my local camera shop got a couple of bricks. Seem to have sold nearly half of it in the fist day.

 

[pentaxuser]

The second batch must be out as my local camera shop got a couple of bricks. Seem to have sold nearly half of it in the fist day.

So they were actually fighting for it by the look of your last two words?

pentaxuser

 

[Disconnekt]

So they were actually fighting for it by the look of your last two words?

pentaxuser

The stores that havent gotten any yet have to declare fisty cuffs for the last batch/box of it

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I was briefly surprised that my camera shop still had Phoenix some while after it came out; but at that time they didn't sell film by mail order. They have just started doing that, so maybe I'll need to run and panic-buy some. .......

 

[Agulliver]

Lol at fisticuffs for film. Maybe it will come to that one day?

The camera shop doesn't really do mail order, though they are set up to send and receive cameras for repair so I don't doubt that they could arrange to post film. But the sales are all IRL, at the brick and mortar store. In January and early February, people were emailing and phoning asking if they had any Phoenix.

I would assume it's now in stock elsewhere too. I'd have considered another roll but am currently out of the country, shooting film on the island of Lanzarote. I actually scared one local by shooting scenes of a street market on 8mm cine film with a 60s clockwork camera. What was lovely to see, was that I was not the only person shooting 35mm still film there this time. Definitely one chap with a Canon EOS 35mm film camera around his neck and another with an P&S, possibly Olympus.

 

[pentaxuser]

Lol at fisticuffs for film. Maybe it will come to that one day?

I would assume it's now in stock elsewhere too. I'd have considered another roll but am currently out of the country, shooting film on the island of Lanzarote. I actually scared one local by shooting scenes of a street market on 8mm cine film with a 60s clockwork camera.

Probably best not to do this again wearing the kind of suit worn in the "Hurt Locker"

pentaxuser

 

[hoomuzzz]

I heard it's a warm-tone neg, and the grains aren't fine though. More like a 400 or 800 film... The price in China is about $12.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

It took me a while to shoot my first sample roll because I've been quite busy and we've been getting dumped on with rain here in the Bay Area, but here it is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/adrian_bacon/albums/72177720315005911

I shot it in auto exposure (letting the camera read the DX code) in a Canon EOS 650 and 40mm STM lens with +0.5 exposure compensation. It was processed in my lab in standard C-41, then digitized with a Canon EOS R5 and RF 100mm Macro lens and turned into a positive with Simple Image Tools. It was shot over the course of a couple of weeks and I picked subjects that I thought would provide reasonable color references.

I did make a custom profile for the film because it has a lot more contrast than standard C-41, but used the standard C-41 color map that I use for all other C-41 film.

For reference, the standard C-41 per channel gamma contrast through the mid-tones (R,G,B) as seen by my equipment is: 0.40, 0.46. 0.59. Harman Phoenix 200 as seen by my equipment is: 1.15, 1.05, 1.05.

It's actually more contrast than standard linear gamma.

Overall, it's OK. Assuming you handle the contrast and white balance correctly (due to the non-standard film base color), it doesn't do anything crazy with the colors or saturation.

Things I'd like to see with the next revision:
1. For the love of god, get anti-halation going, that will significantly boost overall sharpness.
2. Get the contrast under control. Personally I don't care if it's standard C-41 contrast or not, but it's gotta be less than linear gamma. This will also significantly increase overall dynamic range.
3. Get some masking going to improve color. It's not bad as it is now, which is why I'd like to see more sharpness and less contrast before better color.

Does anybody have any questions? I've processed and scanned a number of rolls since it was released and would happy to answer what I can.

 

[koraks]

it doesn't do anything crazy with the colors or saturation.

Well...depending on how you define 'crazy'. Your results, just like mine, don't look like regular C41 film color-wise. This is true for scans, but when optically printing, it became very obvious for me, although the high gamma is far more evident than the color casts, shifts, selective emphasis etc.

The gamma numbers you've determined seem to match quite well with how I interpret the datasheet in the sense that the gamma is >2x that of normal C41 film.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I just sent my second and third rolls off to Harman Lab. This time I used my dad's Pentax P30; it only has DX for setting the speed (though I could have taped over the codes on the cassettes I guess - that would have got me ISO 100 - why didn't I think of that? I did use manual exposure for a few frames). Still got a couple of rolls of it.

I suppose Harman are trying to get to a naturalistic film, but for now I'm happy to play with Phoenix as it is (and Color Mission now I have some), though I wouldn't often buy Lomography's deliberately odd - films (though who knows - if I do enough of this 'playing' I may get dependent on it).

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Well...depending on how you define 'crazy'

i meant when scanning. The reds register as reds, the greens, green, the blues, blue. The saturation is roughly what I’d expect to see relative to other color negative films. I didn’t make a custom color map for it, but I’d I did, it’d fall into line and look even more neutral.

given many of the results I’ve seen online, it’s clear that lots of people/labs are struggling to get reasonably good results.

 

[koraks]

given many of the results I’ve seen online, it’s clear that lots of people/labs are struggling to get reasonably good results.

I recognize that. When scanning, it doesn't present very significant problems, at least not insofar as I've tried it. I think most of the weird results we see are automated minilab scanners expecting to be fed masked CN film with a normal gamma and then going haywire when trying to auto-balance it.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I recognize that. When scanning, it doesn't present very significant problems, at least not insofar as I've tried it. I think most of the weird results we see are automated minilab scanners expecting to be fed masked CN film with a normal gamma and then going haywire when trying to auto-balance it.

I think that's pretty much the sum of most of the trouble. If Harman wants good success with most lab scanners, they need to make it look and act a lot more like standard C-41. I don't personally have an issue with them deviating from what is essentially Kodak's color negative standard and establishing their own CN standard, it just comes with the caveat that it won't look like Kodak CN if digitized with equipment expecting Kodak CN.

 

[bernard_L]

It's actually more contrast than standard linear gamma.

Overall, it's OK. Assuming you handle the contrast and white balance correctly (due to the non-standard film base color), it doesn't do anything crazy with the colors or saturation.

Agreed you were able to obtain quite decent colors. But, IMO he problem is not contrast per se (just parameters in, e.g. a GM profile) but the input dynamic range (related, but not the same). In other words, blocked shadows and highlights; cannot be recovered by profiling.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Agreed you were able to obtain quite decent colors. But, IMO he problem is not contrast per se (just parameters in, e.g. a GM profile) but the input dynamic range (related, but not the same). In other words, blocked shadows and highlights; cannot be recovered by profiling.

This is true. I did shoot a roll with an 18% gray card and ran the exposure up and down the exposure range. at ISO 125, Phoenix 200 literally hits film base plus fog at four stops down. 5 stops down barely registered any density, but you can only see it if you look really hard. Effectively fbf. Standard C-41 is usually at least 5-6 stops down before hitting fbf, so it’s got at least 2 stops of shadows that aren’t there, and that’s at 125. At 200 it’s even worst.

on the highlight side, by 3 stops up, it’s already starting to shoulder, and 5-6 stops it’s not really gaining any more density. In terms of usable DR, I’d put it about 10 stops and that’s being very generous.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Things I'd like to see with the next revision:
1. For the love of god, get anti-halation going, that will significantly boost overall sharpness.
2. Get the contrast under control. Personally I don't care if it's standard C-41 contrast or not, but it's gotta be less than linear gamma. This will also significantly increase overall dynamic range.
3. Get some masking going to improve color. It's not bad as it is now, which is why I'd like to see more sharpness and less contrast before better color.

Ilford literally stated in several of the interviews for the launch of Phoenix that their research priorities for the next iteration would be instigating the contrast/ colour mask and sorting the anti-halation. Most of the oddness of Phoenix is highly likely because it has been designed to conform with standard C-41 negative characteristics after the mask is implemented without having to undo their work thus far.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

If they release a house-trained Phoenix , original 'wild' Phoenix is going to start changing hands at an enhanced, black-market value.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Ilford literally stated in several of the interviews for the launch of Phoenix that their research priorities for the next iteration would be instigating the contrast/ colour mask and sorting the anti-halation. Most of the oddness of Phoenix is highly likely because it has been designed to conform with standard C-41 negative characteristics after the mask is implemented without having to undo their work thus far.

That’s great, but they don’t have to do it all at once. Id be ok with seeing a revision come out that had anti-halation and a bit less contrast, then a revision that had masking and contrast more in line with standard C-41.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I wonder what Harman's real goal is?

This first batch of Phoenix is obviously dreadful, but many on this forum seem very happy with it, so perhaps their goal its to make a slightly less dreadful (or "distinctive") film which has a cult following. After all, why put in that extra effort to make a decent film when there are already several existing excellent colour neg films on the market? A bad film might make better economic sense.

 

[koraks]

perhaps their goal its to make a slightly less dreadful (or "distinctive") film which has a cult following.

That sounds nice, but in all honesty, I think they're in it for the money, as prosaic as that may sound. And that probably means a straightforward, normal color negative film that's similar to Kodak's still image CN films. The market for that kind of product is just bigger than the other niches.

 

[Lachlan Young]

revision come out that had anti-halation and a bit less contrast, then a revision that had masking and contrast

The contrast correction in C-41 films is the mask. That's why the curves need to be so steep to begin with, so that you get 0.6 CI out the other end. Harman's scientists could have very easily made an unmasked film with 0.6 CI gradient curves and the layer curves in the correct order, but clearly chose to do what they did because it will mean they don't need to go back to square 1 in order to add the mask.

 

[pentaxuser]

That sounds nice, but in all honesty, I think they're in it for the money, as prosaic as that may sound. And that probably means a straightforward, normal color negative film that's similar to Kodak's still image CN films. The market for that kind of product is just bigger than the other niches.

Well I suppose that depends on the easiest, most cost effective way to be in it for the money and ChrisGalway's suggestion may well be one way. A lot depends on whether Harman consider what appears to be a large demand initially for its first film to be sustainable A slightly less dreadful film that was easier and cheaper to make than development of a normal negative film might just fit the bill from a benefit to cost aspect. If Kodak can eventually supply the normal C41 market comfortably and I don't see why not, then for Harman to compete in that market it has to either produce as good a film for a lower price or a better film for at best only a little if any more of a higher price

Few and fewer seem to need a colour film that can be optically enlarged to produce "authentic" colours so PS is employed to make any changes required by the new Harman enthusiasts

Where good colours are needed then i-Phones are available for quick exchanges and sharing and for matters such as weddings, christenings and other important occasions where good colours are still considered important there are digital cameras

None of what I have said sits comfortably with me but I and my like matter less and less. Ilford/Harman/ Pemberstone are in the business to make money out of film and that's the bottom line or so it seems to me. Everything will be geared to that yardstick or so it seems to me


pentaxuser

 

[Adrian Bacon]

The contrast correction in C-41 films is the mask. That's why the curves need to be so steep to begin with, so that you get 0.6 CI out the other end. Harman's scientists could have very easily made an unmasked film with 0.6 CI gradient curves and the layer curves in the correct order, but clearly chose to do what they did because it will mean they don't need to go back to square 1 in order to add the mask.

I'm not super familiar with the manufacturing side, but that makes sense.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I wonder what Harman's real goal is?

To make money. This is why companies exist. If they can make money AND also serve an artistic market/function, then even better.

In terms of why they're doing color negative? Well, at least here in the U.S. Kodak is THE 800 pound gorilla. Fuji has effectively ceded the color negative market to Kodak which makes Kodak the only real game in town for color negative film. That's not really a great thing as no competition from others tends to lead companies to doing stupid stuff and charging as much as possible.

If Harman can get color negative going and produce acceptable results similar to what Kodak produces, or maybe at least down market results, then more choice is better. Only one game in town is not a healthy place to be.