First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

albireo · Dec 4, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the pics. It is difficult to imagine that this door trim is anything like a metallic blue colour or the surface on which the cars are parked. It just looks wrong to me

Fair enough, but I think colour can be used as a narrative device in and of itself. You will be familiar I presume with the work of William Eggleston and Saul Leiter? I really don't think that their colours are accurate, as in 'right', or of any value as a documentation device. But their images often resonate with us, for some reason.

Some people like to use, and bend, colour to achieve an artistic vision. For them, colour is not an essential ingredient to achieve an exact representation of the scene: it's an added layer of interest - like composition, and the quality of light.

Of course, this type of 'expressionistic' usage of colour can be overdone, and tacky - think most aerochome shots and that awful yellow-tinted lomo film whose name I don't recollect; or it can be more subdued, and conjure images of (perhaps) a faded memory of a car door trim rather than the actual car door trim.

Some people out there may seek to use colour as a device to express the meaning of an emotional experience rather than to document the physical reality, and those people might find this product of interest.

BrianShaw · Dec 4, 2023

Some of us tend to be rather literal…

Perhaps we need to loosen up?

laingsoft · Dec 4, 2023

Absolutely unbelievable. The horrid, horrid photo engineers at Harman can't even make a perfect replica of portra first try. I know what I'm going to be doing with my money.

Buying a brick of it and having fun. Jeeze guys, lighten up. It's not like you can't still buy portra if you want it. $13.99 isn't really that bad, all told

Sal Santamaura · Dec 4, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Henning, you are, unfortunately, taking my comment too literally. It's not specifically or only Lomo, but rather substandard, "cool," inaccurate color negative films that I was awkwardly attempting to describe. They're sold by multiple manufacturers (confectioners?) and appear to be highly successful with HARMAN Phoenix's target market.

Henning Serger said:
Sal, even if I extend the consideration in the direction you are describing above, it will not change the result significantly:
The market segment you are describing is generally a small niche, and not more than 5-6% of the total market volume. Just ask your preferred distributors how many Redscale, Dubblefilm etc. they are selling......
The huge majority of customers is going for the standard, established (amateur) CN films.

Best regards,
Henning

I stand by my comment. No matter what percentage of the total color negative market they represent, those who purchase films like that have to be HARMAN's target market for this release of PHOENIX. The only exceptions might be photographers comfortable with contributing to an established for-profit corporation's crowdfunded product development project.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 4, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Some of us tend to be rather literal…

Perhaps we need to loosen up?

The accusation of being "too literal" falls in the same category as "too technical." Neither are appropriate. One can be neither too literal nor too technical.

mshchem · Dec 4, 2023

laingsoft said:
Absolutely unbelievable. The horrid, horrid photo engineers at Harman can't even make a perfect replica of portra first try. I know what I'm going to be doing with my money.

Buying a brick of it and having fun. Jeeze guys, lighten up. It's not like you can't still buy portra if you want it. $13.99 isn't really that bad, all told

Well said, it's different and fun. I don't think for one minute that this is the final product coming from Harman. I expect that as this product sells there will follow on with another more conventional product. The Phoenix film may become a popular "alternate" type.

BrianShaw · Dec 4, 2023

Time will tell....

Not being interested in those kind of alternative artsy films, I don't know the answer to this question: What has been the product longevity (in terms of product availability duration, of any of the lomo-type or re-confectioned film offerings? For the few I've given notice (for example, Bergger 200 and several versions of CatLabs), it seems relatively short. And "evolution/improvement" never really happened.

brbo · Dec 4, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Time will tell....

What has been the product longevity (in terms of product availability duration, of any of the lomo-type or re-confectioned film offerings? For the few I've given notice (for example, Bergger 200 and several versions of CatLabs), it seems relatively short. And "evolution/improvement" never really happened.

LomoChrome Metropolis is on its second version (+ one really limited "Tokyo" edition). LomoChrome '92 is another, bigger, step forward.

laingsoft · Dec 4, 2023

brbo said:
LomoChrome Metropolis is on its second version (+ one really limited "Tokyo" edition). LomoChrome '92 is another, bigger, step forward.

Before PE passed away I remember a post on here explaining that metropolis looked like a film that was having trouble with interlayer scavengers. I would suspect that the supply chain for the specialty chemicals needed for C41 films is pretty locked up tight by Kodak and Fuji, hence why we had nothing until this year, now all of a sudden we're seeing new Orwo, Lomo and now Harman films coming out.

MattKing · Dec 4, 2023

laingsoft said:
Before PE passed away I remember a post on here explaining that metropolis looked like a film that was having trouble with interlayer scavengers. I would suspect that the supply chain for the specialty chemicals needed for C41 films is pretty locked up tight by Kodak and Fuji, hence why we had nothing until this year, now all of a sudden we're seeing new Orwo, Lomo and now Harman films coming out.

I think that it is now more the case that neither Kodak nor Fuji are ordering enough of those very specialized chemicals in order to ensure that they are produced regularly.
As I understand it, Eastman Kodak is constantly having to balance their capital limitations with needing to provide at least six months of lead time in order to obtain many of the constituent ingredients they need, and as their order sizes are small, they are vulnerable to being shoved down the priority list by intervening orders from customers outside the photographic industry.

pbromaghin · Dec 4, 2023

Agulliver said:
@Ten301 I am so dreadfully sorry that Harman peed in your cornflakes.

Honestly, while I was one of those who was expecting a more perfected product and ended up being wrong, I see why they're doing this. They need to sell the first usable colour film to the public in order to pay for the R&D costs they already ploughed into the project. And it is a freaking miracle that they got from where they were to Phoenix in 12 months. That is an achievement never before made in the entire history of the photographic film industry. Maybe that specific word "miracle" rubs you up the wrong way but they've done something nobody else has ever done. And I believe they should be applauded for that and encouraged to continue in their endeavours to make better colour film.

The kicker is, without selling Phoenix, there will ne no more colour film from Harman.

If the standard is the curing of cancer, then I guess no miracle is possible. But this one sure qualifies as a "How the flaming hell did they ever do that?"

That being said, I won't be buying it, mainly because I don't shoot color any more.

Agulliver · Dec 5, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Some of us tend to be rather literal…

Perhaps we need to loosen up?

As a neurodiverse person who often takes things more literally than the average person.....I still have no issue with "miracle". But perhaps that is down to having zero faith in any of the Abrahamic religions? I think most of us are using the word in it's modern, non-religious meaning. It is an amazing achievement to go from zero to Phoenix in 12 months.

laingsoft said:
Absolutely unbelievable. The horrid, horrid photo engineers at Harman can't even make a perfect replica of portra first try. I know what I'm going to be doing with my money.

Buying a brick of it and having fun. Jeeze guys, lighten up. It's not like you can't still buy portra if you want it. $13.99 isn't really that bad, all told

Yep. I only have two rolls and I don't know if I shall get more, that may depend on how ling it remains on the market. At least one retailer had hinted at another shipment in March 2024. It's not like my stash of film is in need right now, but this is something new and something I specifically wish to support. Because I want to see Harman eventually produce something that is a "normal" C41 film, if that's their ultimate aim. And because I do see something creatively useful in Phoenix when the right weather conditions come about. The 9 frames I shot under spotlights in a jazz club will be.....interesting....

Dustin McAmera · Dec 5, 2023

Agulliver said:
zero faith in any of the Abrahamic religions

What - not even the Zone System?

brbo · Dec 5, 2023

So if they really did go from zero or "what is colour?" to Phoenix in 12 months, what can we expect from Harman a year/5 years from now?

Anyone brave enough to speculate?

If we take efforts by Lomo/Inoviscoat (Metropolis in 2019 --> LomoChrome '92 in 2023) as a pedestrian benchmark that apparently hasn't impressed anyone, what can miracle workers achieve in a year's time? Color Mission+? Portra 400VC in 5 years? Adox at one point said that they are confident that they have everything sorted out to be able to recreate Color Mission in about 4 years.

koraks · Dec 5, 2023

brbo said:
Anyone brave enough to speculate?

The law of diminishing returns. Consecutive incremental improvements tend to come at exponentially rising costs. I'd like to see Harman break that rule - but they'd be the first, ever in history, in any technological domain, to manage it.

Kino · Dec 5, 2023

Maybe Phoenix will slowly evolve, while they accumulate what they learn from this stock and make and improved stock in addition to this one; who knows?

Maybe they will make a few runs and decide it's just not worth the effort/expense to continue.

Kinda pointless to speculate at this point; buckle up and enjoy the ride.

brbo · Dec 5, 2023

koraks said:
The law of diminishing returns. Consecutive incremental improvements tend to come at exponentially rising costs. I'd like to see Harman break that rule - but they'd be the first, ever in history, in any technological domain, to manage it.

Well aware of that.

We were reminded here that Harman got their priorities right (as opposed to Inoviscoat, I guess), so maybe we can at least at the beginning see faster iterations to something similar or a bit better than Color Mission.

Kino said:
Kinda pointless to speculate at this point; buckle up and enjoy the ride.

What?! Speculation is half the fun. We managed to produce a cool thousand of posts just speculating whether we live in the extremely exiting times where Ilford HP5+ gets rebranded into Harman HP5+! I can't imagine to just keep my mouth shut during the ride. I wanna scream!

And I hope that this Phoenix project doesn't stop Adox and Lomo from investing further into development of proper colour films.

Agulliver · Dec 5, 2023

If I allow myself to speculate, unless there is some great quantum leap or "miracle" that they stumble on....I suspect we'll get incremental improvements. Some who are in the know seem to think that the very next batch (due March 2024) will be slightly improved.

We have what is basically a functional colour negative film. They could guess before launch that what many customers will want is wider "dynamic range" and finer grain. But they'll also get a lot of feedback in the coming weeks from actual customers and not just the chosen content creators. That could spin the R&D in a different direction to the obvious "Let's make the Harman equivalent of Portra" to something a bit different. If the relatively premium price is here to stay, there's not a lot of point in creating something to compete with Color Plus or Gold.

Harman have said that they're hoping to do a 100 and 400, and maybe 800 in the future, once they've improved on Phoenix. So let's say that in five years time I would not be surprised if we have a more conventional C41 film in at least two speeds, but something that doesn't look like anything Kodak or Fuji offer....and quite likely available in 120 as well as 35mm.

And I also hope this only spurs Adox, Lomo and others into investing in their own colour films. Lomochrome 92 and Color Mission both showed a lot of progress had been made. Having more viable "normal" C41 film can only be a good thing. It would be nice to know that if Fuji and Kodak are out of stock....that I can probably rely on getting some Harman, Adox or Lomography decent colour film....in, say, five years time.

Sirius Glass · Dec 5, 2023

Taking only 12 months to design and produce a color negative film is quite and accomplishment. I hope that the time between improved iterations is short and we will see their color negative products evolve quickly.

Craig · Dec 5, 2023

koraks said:
The law of diminishing returns. Consecutive incremental improvements tend to come at exponentially rising costs. I'd like to see Harman break that rule - but they'd be the first, ever in history, in any technological domain, to manage it.

I think the difference here is that they are not breaking any new ground. No new technical knowledge needs to be invented, as excellent C41 films already exist. Harman needs to figure out how to do it, but it is knowledge that is already known to mankind - and already proven to be possible.

koraks · Dec 5, 2023

Craig said:
I think the difference here is that they are not breaking any new ground. No new technical knowledge needs to be invented, as excellent C41 films already exist.

This will make the process less painstaking and faster than it may have been for Kodak, eons ago, but the law of diminishing returns still holds true. Absorptive capacity isn't instantaneous, perfect and unlimited. It's the 'figuring out' aspect you mention to which the diminishing returns will still apply.

pbromaghin · Dec 5, 2023

pbromaghin said:
If the standard is the curing of cancer, then I guess no miracle is possible. But this one sure qualifies as a "How the flaming hell did they ever do that?"

That being said, I won't be buying it, mainly because I don't shoot color any more.

Me and my big mouth. I was in Mikes Camera in Lone Tree, CO to get some Ilford FB paper (I never dreamed they would stock it as they used to pretend film didn't exist) and they had 3 rolls of Phoenix. I bought 2.

Now the question is how to shoot it? At 130, or 200? Do both for every shot? Camera meter or hand-held incident? Try some flash? Put one through the new-to-me Nikon FM or FE? Test to see if they are clued in for scanning and compare it with whatever I can come up with on my Epson V550? Or skip their scans and just do my own?

Any recommendations?

Anon Ymous · Dec 5, 2023

pbromaghin said:
Now the question is how to shoot it? At 130, or 200?

According to those who created it, it's (mathematically) 123,5 ISO, so 125 should be fine. According to one of those who have used it (YouTube video, don't remember exactly which) it can handle overexposure pretty well and still give good results. I'd skip minilab scanning and do my own.

BrianShaw · Dec 5, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
According to those who created it, it's (mathematically) 123,5 ISO, so 125 should be fine. According to one of those who have used it (YouTube video, don't remember exactly which) it can handle overexposure pretty well and still give good results. I'd skip minilab scanning and do my own.

Forgive me if I didn’t see this discussion in earlier posts/threads, but can you please give more explanation? Harman data sheet says it’s rated at 200, and continues:

“HARMAN Phoenix 200 is easily processed in C41 / CN16 processing chemicals and can be exposed in the
range EI 100 – 400. The best overall results are obtained at EI 200, however highlight control may be improved by
underexposing 0.5 – 1 stop depending on the scene.”

warden · Dec 5, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Forgive me if I didn’t see this discussion in earlier posts/threads, but can you please give more explanation? Harman data sheet says it’s rated at 200, and continues:

“HARMAN Phoenix 200 is easily processed in C41 / CN16 processing chemicals and can be exposed in the
range EI 100 – 400. The best overall results are obtained at EI 200, however highlight control may be improved by
underexposing 0.5 – 1 stop depending on the scene.”

It's in the video found in post #49 of this thread at the 10:45 mark.

First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

albireo

BrianShaw

laingsoft

Sal Santamaura

Sal Santamaura

mshchem

BrianShaw

brbo

laingsoft

MattKing

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pbromaghin

Agulliver

Dustin McAmera

brbo

koraks

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Kino

brbo

Agulliver

Sirius Glass

Craig

koraks

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pbromaghin

Anon Ymous

BrianShaw

warden

First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

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