Film rape

[Vonder]

I was in a local camera store last weekend and on a whim, decide to grab a roll of Tmax 3200. Haven't tried it so I figured why not? Well, when she rang it up it came to nearly $12 for one roll. I gasped. She claimed that the high-ISO film is always expensive, so I nodded and left, but checked out B&H and the same roll there is $6. I feel violated.

Now, on the plus side, this store actually carries a wide selection of film still, so I can't bitch about them too much, but it's curious, the markup. Is there that much difference in the store's price paid to Kodak for small shops like this compared to B&H?

It's a horrible catch-22, you as a store want to support film users but to make a decent profit you must markup like this... and thus some people won't buy film from you at all...

 

[Andy K]

I can get Tmax 3200 for £3.49 a roll if I buy ten or more rolls. That works out to about US$5.65.

 

[bdial]

My local shop threw away cartons of 4x5 film that they couldn't sell, and later gave me 40 rolls of 120 tmax that was outdated and just sitting in their fridge, because of low demand. I doubt the small shops can afford to give much of a price break, given they may end up with a lot of it on their shelf for 2 years then pitch it into the dumpster. Retailers like B&H can afford to buy in huge quantities for the best pricing from the distributers, then they have the whole world making orders for it.
I'd love to support my local retailers in buying film, but I can't afford to do it for more than token amounts.

 

[Marco B]

This is an issue I have been thinking about quite a bit too... I do think there is a need for smaller shops and the steps in between the actual producers and the final sellers, to re-evaluate their product margins.

Sure, film makers have seen their source material prices go up, which means that the real production costs are higher, but I have a strong feeling that many in the chain are holding up to the gold standard "we need to make 50% profit on each single sale" margin concept, which leads to an unwanted cascade of strong price raises.

What the shop owners and distributors need to ask themselves is, do they really need to make 3 dollars / euros of 50% profit on each single sold roll?? They sure didn't when a single roll still cost less than 3 euro...

I do think many are stretching it to the breaking point by keeping to these very high margins. If they would accept slightly lower margins, they could keep the price more acceptable, and maybe keep the customers happy in the process and allow them to shoot more...

Marco

 

[Leighgion]

There's no surprise in this.

An outfit like B&H, that's one of the biggest photographic mail order outfits in the nation, has not only more buying power to keep their cost per unit down, they also have a much more reliable rate of turnover. A whole lot of people who want film all over the nation (and to some extent outside) will buy it from B&H. Also, while B&H has a retail store, it doesn't hold all their stock. They've warehouses of stuff and warehouse space is much cheaper to operate per square foot than a retail shop.

A local camera store has less buying power, much higher overhead per square foot, less raw business and considerably slower turnover rates on their inventory. Inventory that sits on the shelf unsold isn't just profit waiting to happen, it's costing the business money versus having stuff on there that would sell faster. Add to that the fact that film is a perishable item and a shop has to charge enough money to make it worthwhile for them to stock the stuff at all.

If all that isn't enough, this is T-Max 3200 we're talking about, a specialty film. They probably do some of the lowest volume sales on that among all the film they carry.

 

[hrst]

Local stores here are usually like this... For example, a 135-36 roll of Fuji Velvia or Provia costs about 13 EUR = 18 USD. And then, you can buy it elsewhere in Finland for 10 EUR or buy from Europe at 5-6 EUR. No wonder that local shops are saying that film is dead...

I have come to conclusion that the best thing to do is to support film industry like Kodak, Fuji and Ilford and shoot more film; and this is best possible when you search for cheap big sellers and forget "supporting local services". I would gladly support local service, but if I have to choose between supporting them or supporting FILM..... go figure!

 

[Andrew Moxom]

I know it hurts the smaller shops, but this is why I buy all my film from Freestyle, Calumet, or B&H. I see no need for the local stores grab for extorsionate profits on this stuff. 50% is just outrageous daylight robbery. I also tire of the incessant push these stores make in making people lean towards digital. It's all about sales to be honest... The fearmongering, lack of knowledge all contribute to making local stores a place to avoid in my mind.

 

[railwayman3]

The situation is really little different to the reason for many small shops of different kinds disappearing...thinking of grocery shops, the big supermarkets can offer bigger ranges, cheaper prices, 24 hour opening, and online ordering and delivery. We miss the little family corner shops, but no-one wants to pay more than they need for little or no benefit.

I agree with hrst...we need to keep supporting film, and that means the makers. Like most people, my photographic budget is not unlimited, so do I buy 6 films from a local shop, or 12 from a mail order specialist for the same cost (while also saving time and petrol by ordering on-line)?

 

[clogz]

If a shop/store tries to fleece you on analogue stuff.....beat them digitally and order on-line....makes sense financially. Best of both worlds!

 

[DWThomas]

Yes, that sounds like a typical experience. A few years ago I made a sudden decision to shoot some 35mm B&W on a trip and didn't have time to order online. I went to the best photo shop near me and asked about Plus-X. They had it in 36 exposure rolls, so I asked for three. I almost choked when I was asked for $22-something. There's a 6% Pennsylvania sales tax which pretty well nullifies shipping costs from online orders, and I paid 7-something a roll for what I recall was $3.79 or the like at B&H.

"If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

At least I did get some good pictures out of it.

 

[jovo]

The thing is that, even for digital stuff, B&H, Adorama and the like sell for so much less than local stores that one wonders how they survive at all. Where I live the local shop stopped selling gear years ago, and now mostly offers digital prints, cases, frames and that sort of thing. The only film in that shop is what gets on the windows and has to be washed off a couple of times a year.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Let's not beat up the independant stores too much -- not until you know their FULL costs and their full ability to obtain the stock in the first place.

We all have a line. I am a dedicated supporter of a GREAT local store close to me (Photo Central - darkroomcentral.ca) and am willing to pay somewhat of a markup for the convenience factor. I'll do that only so much, of course -- but that's why we all have to have our 'line' when we simply say no thanks.

I think their prices are very reasonable and I appreciate their dedication to film. This store you mention doesn't sound like that, so...for the kind of items you mention maybe you're better off shopping elsewhere. You could mention the markup and ask them to try match it...all they can do is say no.

 

[hrst]

Of course there are definitely many good small or local stores. But MANY local stores are no good, and that's exactly the point---being local isn't anymore enough on it's own; there have to be some other benefits too. Or at least there shouldn't be too severe disadvantages....

And, comparing to grocery stores, the small local ones, at least here, seem to be about 5-15% more expensive due to smaller size. But 5-15% is completely manageable, 40-70% is not. That's a big difference. And, usually small corner food stores offer also some other benefits like quick and comfortable access to most common products and no need to stay in queue for 5 minutes like in supermarkets, at least here.

 

[mark]

SOmetimes I wonder if "local" gives people the assumed right to screw you and expect you to enjoy it. I get that all time around here. I have one glass shop in town. I wanted some plexiglass and they charged, for a quarter sheet what two whole sheets cost off the net and one sheet cost in a larger town near us. It was cheaper to order the product I was going to build. While their costs are insane, the trend here is to have prices that are much higher often 100% more than in a larger town where there is more competition.

I have lived here for two years and that does not make me local. It just makes me a jerk when I point out how people are screwing people.

Where I used to live there was a small camera shop that went out of business when the owner died. They ditched their Kodak line when Kodak began requiring them to buy more stock than he would ever be able to sell. He said, to make ends meet with Kodak materials, he would have to charge 300% over what he paid because he did not sell a lot. Not worth it in his mind. Mine either.

 

[Vonder]

This camera store isn't in my home town, it's a 20 minute drive away, so I only get there on occasion. My local stores are film-indecisive, but this store always has a large stock of film. The two in town have a couple brands. This store has nearly every Kodak and Ilrord and Fuji product (35mm and 120) and I think I saw some Elfke or Foma too. The store has always been a used eqipment emporium. I love going there and just window shopping.

The reason I didn't balk too badly is that I was also buying 3 plastic 16x20 trays, for $25. That seemed like a great price to me, so the roll of film wasn't too onerous.

 

[Moose38]

I want to help my local shops when i can. But in these hard times. I will not be tooken advantage of either. Let's make it clear. They need our businiess to stay open. With out it they go belly up. So they need to better job straddling the fence if you know what i mean.

 

[GeorgeDexter]

A. Small stores have to mark film and accessories up 40-50% because they can't make any money selling cameras. (Camera markup averages about 10-12%, and even then they aren't as low as B&H and their ilk.)
B. If you sell prints or photographic services, what do YOU mark them up?
C. Small businesses employ people, and contribute to the local tax base. B&H does not.
D. Thriving business districts improve property values for local homeowners. B&H does not.

It's not just camera stores that this applies to. It's all small retail. Local retailers use local banks, hire local people, use local utilities, pay local taxes, etc. etc. When all the small retailers are gone, and online is the only thing left, everyone's quality of life will suffer -- except for the owners of the online megastores.

Sometimes doing The Right Thing costs more.

 

[mcfactor]

Acutally, B&H has done plenty for the area where it is located, on 34st and 9th ave in NYC. A major amount of tourist visit the area and spend money in the city. Not only because of B&H, but it does help a lot. By the way, B&H employs roughly 1500 people in the city.

 

[JMC1969]

Well.

I can't help myself but to feel quite offended and surprised by the bulk of replies here. So, I will try to give you all a few facts and then for a personal need to know, ask what it is you really want to see from your local shops and labs. Or whether you care if they stay open at all and would rather mail order and mail in process from here on out.

The example here was given for a specialty film, as it was pointed out, but that really doesn't make all that much of a difference.

Tmax 3200 -
1.costs me $7.01 if I buy 20 rolls or more and no further discount beyond this for extra rolls.
2. Plus shipping =flat fee if the order is under $1000 and actual shipping charges if under $500 (which is generally double that amount).
3. Add for COD and if not COD, pay up front, no net 30
4. plus $1 per Debit transaction whether you buy 1 roll or 30 rolls. Credit cards take a percentage of total sale.
5. This is the cheaper way for us rather than buying direct from the maker.



All in all, I could buy it from B&H for cheaper as well if that were all I was ordering. We however do not stock this film as we chose to purchase Ilford through a different distributor because it is more cost effective. Yet, we still have the same set of standards as listed above, but are able to order from Pan F to 3200, plus Kentmere which is a student favorite because of price. We stock some specialty films so people have the chance to try different things such as Efke, Foma, Rollei ,and you all know we are getting from the same place you do in the USA, but we like to keep it on hand for our customers to be able to make a quick purchase on the go. And try something new.

The suggestion that a local shop might "Fleece you" or "screw you because they are "local" is just offensive. Ultimately, most of these small stores opened to begin with because they shared a common interest with you and wanted to bring a business together to support that interest in your area. Believe me when I say, "They know you have access to a computer and can buy it for equal amount or less on the internet." Jacking the price up just to get deeper into your pocket, is not a goal of theirs. If they are still dealing in film or processing film in-house, they are trying to keep your business, not alienate you.

We would be lucky to make 50 cent on average for a roll of film, be it B&W or color and only about 15% of B&W comes back to us for processing. Most of my weekly B&W run is from film bought in other places. I would say we are "straddling the fence" until we have been rubbed raw. Add the price of chemicals, labor, disposal, maintenance, and all sorts of other expenses and I would have to agree with the other few here of questioning how we are here at all. Well, because We still love it, and don't want to think about what might eventually come after it. All along, keeping up to date with what is going on in the mainstream of photography.

Ask yourself some questions. Then tell me whether or not it would bother you if the local shops closed forever. Everything you need from film, to processing, to prints (from 4x6 to 30"x pano), to darkroom supplies, and so on, all through the mail/carrier. Some are already in this position, so ask them as well. The answer to that question could answer whether I am just pissing in the wind and just too wet to realize it.

 

[bdial]

Get real folks.
The vast majority of the small retailers aren't out to screw anyone. Their prices reflect the realities of the market. The price you pay for a roll of film has to support the three rolls you don't buy that get tossed when it's no good.
Every item in the store has to contribute to the rent, lights, heat, and paychecks for the clerks. By the time a roll of film has been on the shelf long enough to be outdated, then offered at a discount, it has generated a lot of costs that never get recovered.

 

[DLawson]

Acutally, B&H has done plenty for the area where it is located, on 34st and 9th ave in NYC. A major amount of tourist visit the area and spend money in the city. Not only because of B&H, but it does help a lot. By the way, B&H employs roughly 1500 people in the city.

I'm sure that New Yorkers are happy about that. But to apply GeorgeDexter's point to my own shopping, B&H does nothing to improve Dayton, Ohio. They employ no one here. Unfortunately, there are almost no local vendors here any more. (Fairborn Camera, and they'd drop analog if not for the University.)

Don't get me wrong, I like B&H, Freestyle, Adorama, etc. I've enjoyed doing business with all of them. But if I had a local option, it would be worth it to ask myself what markup it is worth to preserve that. I use the local place for what they carry, but most stuff has dried up and blown away.

 

[Moose38]

5.50 to 6.00 per roll fine for ISO 3200. 12.00 bucks a roll highway robbery!!!

 

[fotch]

If you take B&H price for one roll, add shipping, then, considering it will take several days to a week to get to you, not all that bad.

Mail order has to be cheaper otherwise, why would anyone buy from them. Of course, if you then go ahead and buy volume because of the price, your way ahead, but, don't complain that local stores don't carry product anymore, cause, little or no volume, it isn't profitable to stock it.

Its hell being a retailer in photo and has been for many many years.

 

[Vonder]

Certainly

Ask yourself some questions. Then tell me whether or not it would bother you if the local shops closed forever. Everything you need from film, to processing, to prints (from 4x6 to 30"x pano), to darkroom supplies, and so on, all through the mail/carrier. Some are already in this position, so ask them as well. The answer to that question could answer whether I am just pissing in the wind and just too wet to realize it.

I have asked myself this, many times. My answer has always been that I can't control it. Not me, not one person. I buy local when the mood strikes me and price isn't a concern. I can't buy everything local because they don't carry everything - Sony products for instance in one local store - so I buy what I need to buy online, online.

I'd miss my main local store a TON. They do all my C-41 work. They charge 12-13 dollars a roll. I could take the film to Walmart and get it done cheap, but these guys ROCK. I know most of the lab people by name, and they've been there for years, most of them. There is a huge quality difference. My sister had some pics printed at Sam's club recently and remarked how bad they were.

What I'm saying is that when local stores shine, they attract buyers who'll pay more than they might elsewhere. My store is superb at printing. So I go there, spend there. I don't care if something costs more if it's better quality, but film is film. Cameras are cameras. I don't know how a retailer differentiates himself in that arena other than customer service, and I've gotten excellent customer service from B&H as well as my local guys.

 

[WolfTales]

Ah the $12 rolllllll.....