Film rape

[fotch]

Fotch, empathy should only go to real victims....not those that created their own problem with unrealistic policies directed at cheating film buyers.

I prefer to have empathy for my fellow film users and not the scammers....

So much confusion on these internets!

You feel cheated? Everyone out to scam you? I feel for you.:rolleyes:

 

[JMC1969]

Jerk151, you're confused, sir....those stores are being very "insensitive" to the buyer by charging exorbitant prices...it seems your "compassion" is misguided, sadly. You have compassion for those types...that says a lot about you.

No offense and I know this is one VERY long thread, but you should read the whole thing before calling someone out for being confused. I spelled out my feelings and frustrations on this topic early on in this thread and have only come to the conclusion that not all small shops are the same or have the same goals.

 

[fotch]

No offense and I know this is one VERY long thread, but you should read the whole thing before calling someone out for being confused. I spelled out my feelings and frustrations on this topic early on in this thread and have only come to the conclusion that not all small shops are the same or have the same goals.

A very logical, intelligent view.

 

[SilverGlow]

You feel cheated? Everyone out to scam you? I feel for you.:rolleyes:

Tell me Fotch, do you often put words in other people's posts? You can't bring an intelligent response to this thread, so instead you manufacture words...perhaps you should give half your paycheck to your local film shop and put your $$ where your mouth is.

 

[SilverGlow]

No offense and I know this is one VERY long thread, but you should read the whole thing before calling someone out for being confused. I spelled out my feelings and frustrations on this topic early on in this thread and have only come to the conclusion that not all small shops are the same or have the same goals.

You can call me out for not showing empathy, but when you're taken to task on what I think is a confused view, you victimize yourself...duplicity, to be sure.

Perhaps if you read a book on business, the role of businesses, and what keeps them going, all this might get cleared up ;-)

 

[JMC1969]

You can call me out for not showing empathy, but when you're taken to task on what I think is a confused view, you victimize yourself...duplicity, to be sure.

Perhaps if you read a book on business, the role of businesses, and what keeps them going, all this might get cleared up ;-)

I guess offense was taken. All I was asking is that you read earlier posts of mine so you may understand where I was coming from before calling me confused. Had you read any of that, I think you may understand why I felt your comment:

To hell with the little ma & pa film shops...may they all go out of business

is insensitive. WOW, I'm searching for what else to say. I keep reading your last post and I have to question whether you bothered to read any of this thread or if you just made a random comment to the OP. The thread was 12 pages long before you entered your comment and it has tons of useful thoughts and reasoning behind the issue. I think the better advice is for you to read the post before assuming that "all this might get cleared up" if a business book was read. I guess you should have posted that 11 pages ago and we would all be smarter by now.

 

[SilverGlow]

No Jerk151, I didn't read the entire post, nor does one need to to determine that when a small film shop charges double the market, I find it hard to empathize with them...It is not our job to keep them afloat...they have that responsibility, to price in such a way as to build up the business, not turn buyers off. If a business is unable to make their business model work they should change it or get out. To be subsidized by "empathetic" customers is not the way to go.

 

[JMC1969]

It is not our job to keep them afloat...they have that responsibility, to price in such a way as to build up the business, not turn buyers off. If a business is unable to make their business model work they should change it or get out. To be subsidized by "empathetic" customers is not the way to go.

Well there you go SliverGlow. This post is a reasonable and sound "opinion" no matter who agrees or disagrees. Had you posted this to begin with I probably would not have commented at all. But, telling people to go to hell is a *bleeping* insensitive comment. You don't seem to be an idiotic person so it seems odd that you did not see that some people may take offense the idiotic statement you posted. Or maybe that is what you thrive on and I am just playing into your hands.

 

[fotch]

Tell me Fotch, do you often put words in other people's posts? You can't bring an intelligent response to this thread, so instead you manufacture words...perhaps you should give half your paycheck to your local film shop and put your $$ where your mouth is.

It’s so funny reading your replies. Well, you said "stores want to rape us" so if not you, who? Then you go on to manufacture facts about prices (half your paycheck) rather than any real specific examples.

While some resellers may be unrealistic in their pricing, I personally don't think is an epidemic, do you?

Regardless, I realize that you may love to argue and insult, however, if this is not your goal, I hope you may realize it certainly is not mine. Therefore, I say to you, Have a Nice Day.

 

[SilverGlow]

Well there you go SliverGlow. This post is a reasonable and sound "opinion" no matter who agrees or disagrees. Had you posted this to begin with I probably would not have commented at all. But, telling people to go to hell is a *bleeping* insensitive comment. You don't seem to be an idiotic person so it seems odd that you did not see that some people may take offense the idiotic statement you posted. Or maybe that is what you thrive on and I am just playing into your hands.

Jerk151, I didn't tell you to go to hell....just some of those shop owners that charge double or worse....by the way I pay $1.50 per 36 exposure roll for Kodak Tri-X, the real deal, and fresh....rebranded to Arista Premium...see what I mean? Many small shops charge TRIPLE if not more....again, I say they can all go to hell....but not you, and not even that rude Fotch either! ;-)

 

[doughowk]

One reason why unemployment is so high in the US is because of our short-sighted consumer mentality. Whether its the big-box companies or distant online stores, we're more interested in getting the absolutely lowest price while ignoring the ancillary benefits of shopping locally including dealing with knowledgeable retail personnel. Go to B&H site. Do you see any advertisements for film photography, or any how-to information? Visiting their site, the novice photographer will see only one solution - digital. I used to shop at a local photo store primarily because their people were a wealth of information on all aspects of photography. The store went digital and eventually closed. Digital is all about price whereas traditional photography is about process and quality. Anybody can pick up a digital camera and get a good-enough picture; but traditional photography requires information. Try to get that at some of the online retailers. Most of them are into extolling the virtues of digital while ignoring those who may want to practice traditional photography. In the long run, their channeling the novice into digital solutions will be what kills film photography.

 

[thebdt]

...but traditional photography requires information. Try to get that at some of the online retailers. Most of them are into extolling the virtues of digital while ignoring those who may want to practice traditional photography. In the long run, their channeling the novice into digital solutions will be what kills film photography.

My experience here in San Diego has been the exact opposite.

Whenever my friends and I go into the local "mom-n-pop" stores looking for film, some fresh-faced clerk is often quick to pressure us into "going digital." Indeed, at George's Camera (again here in San Diego), a friend went in asking when their 4x5 film would be restocked. The boy behind the counter disdainfully informed him that everyone was going digital, and that the prudent course would be to 'ditch' film.

This is a new world. You want good advice? Come to a forum like this one; NEITHER the big box retailers, nor (at this point) the mom-n-pops provide real service. The WORST lens purchase I ever made—a hyper-zoom that was soft in about every zoom length—was heartily recommended by a 'mom-n-pop' sales clerk (working on commission I suspect). The BEST lens purchase I ever made—a poor-man's "L" macro prime—came from the recommendations I read online.

So, I'm sorry, but the good old days of the *slightly* more expensive mom-n-pop providing service and going the extra mile are GONE. On the other hand, Freestyle's house-brand film, and its cheap price, are part of what allows me to even AFFORD film. I'd argue the opposite of you; if film is to survive in the 21st Century, big box stores and their volume discounts will SAVE it...

 

[JMC1969]

Jerk151, I didn't tell you to go to hell....just some of those shop owners that charge double or worse....by the way I pay $1.50 per 36 exposure roll for Kodak Tri-X, the real deal, and fresh....rebranded to Arista Premium...see what I mean? Many small shops charge TRIPLE if not more....again, I say they can all go to hell....but not you, and not even that rude Fotch either! ;-)

Silverglow, I hope this is the last I will have to say on this matter. But, once again, had you read the thread or even searched my posts you would see that I in fact gain my livelihood through working at one of these small shops/labs. Therefore, you are telling me to go to hell and hoping for the demise of my job/career and livelihood. I have no real wish to argue with you and most of my points have already be written in this thread, so I have no wish to repeat myself. I am merely trying to explain why I commented on an insensitive statement. We are pushing 40,000 members at Apug and I know I am not the only one here that works in the business. So the statement in which I commented on is telling many of the members in your film community that they are worthless to the community.

I will point out that just because your Arista Premium has an expiration date on it, does not guarantee it is "Fresh" film. I have no inside knowledge to whether it is or isn't, just that a expire date is not proof. I have always questioned why Kodak would knowingly sell a master roll for re-branding for so cheap when it will ultimately be competing with it's own label film.

The only re-statement I will make from my previous post is that you have no idea what these small shop you claim are charging triple, paid for the film themselves. When we carried Kodak Tri-x we paid $3.80 a roll + shipping and sold it for $4.75, that is not through Kodak, because buying direct from Kodak is too expensive. We would be lucky to get 1 out of 20 rolls back for processing. Not exactly pushing our profits through the roof and probably not contributing to the profit margin at all.

 

[thebdt]

I will point out that just because your Arista Premium has an expiration date on it, does not guarantee it is "Fresh" film. I have no inside knowledge to whether it is or isn't, just that a expire date is not proof. I have always questioned why Kodak would knowingly sell a master roll for re-branding for so cheap when it will ultimately be competing with it's own label film.

Wow. Just, wow. You talk about supporting the community here at Apug, and then you go off vaguely implying that one of Apug's direct sponsors—Freestyle—may be selling expired film. Granted, you didn't claim this directly, but why did you even bring up the specter of selling out-dated film. Do you have ANY basis to even IMPLY that the film MIGHT be past-date? You "question" why Kodak would sell rebranded film; here's a thought: their production runs over-produce, and so they make a tidy profit selling the overage as a house brand to Freestyle. OR they use a slightly thinner, less-expensive film base. OR they have "standards," like their film must have at least three years before expiry to be sold as official Kodak film, and due to their supply line, some of their film sits around for a year, and is sold as a house-brand at Freestyle with a clearly-labeled two year expiry.

All of these are plausible explanations; I would tend to give the Apug *sponsor* the benefit of the doubt before I go around vaguely implying that they are selling expired film.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I realize just how wrong your post is. Yes, an expiration date *IS* a guarantee—Freestyle is guaranteeing, based upon its good name, that if you use its house-brand film by the expiration date, said film will behave according to published specifications.

 

[JMC1969]

Wow. Just, wow. You talk about supporting the community here at Apug, and then you go off vaguely implying that one of Apug's direct sponsors—Freestyle—may be selling expired film. Granted, you didn't claim this directly, but why did you even bring up the specter of selling out-dated film. Do you have ANY basis to even IMPLY that the film MIGHT be past-date?

I absolutely understand how my comment could be read in this way, but I assure you it was not my intention to put words in anyones head as to these films being expired and sold as new. I would have zero basis to actually, or purposely, imply such a thing. My statement was in regards to the poster clarifying that his film was "Fresh". In which, I felt there was a implication of it being straight off the coater or absolutely no difference than the Kodak branded version. As you state yourself there could be a number of different reasons for the sale such as:

their production runs over-produce, and so they make a tidy profit selling the overage as a house brand to Freestyle.

OR they use a slightly thinner, less-expensive film base.

OR they have "standards," like their film must have at least three years before expiry to be sold as official Kodak film, and due to their supply line, some of their film sits around for a year, and is sold as a house-brand at Freestyle with a clearly-labeled two year expiry.

This is all I was implying, not that they are trying to pass off expired film.

So, lesson learned! For both of us hopefully. Jumping to conclusions of what is Implied in a statement by another is probably not a good idea. I should not have jumped to that conclusion about SilverGlow's comment and if it is not what he meant, I owe him an apology for that, Sorry. I did not mean to put words in his mouth and certainly don't want any put in mine.

If this is the conclusion Freestyle Reps or other member took from my comment, I apologize again. It was not my intention.

 

[Vernon Photo]

Wolfeye
"Is there that much difference in the store's price paid to Kodak for small shops like this compared to B&H?"
Yes, but I don't think that much. I am a Kodak dealer. I don't buy directly from Kodak. I can buy much cheaper from third party distributors than I can from Kodak, and like I said, I'm a Kodak dealer. Kodak charges me almost 50% more than what I would pay at Wal*Mart, B&H or the like. Our store marks up 35mm film about $0.30 to $0.35 per roll.

 

[marsbars]

Support the local guy? What local guy.

Well, I did read the whole thread and found a lot of the posts enlightening. And some of them down right rude. But that is my opinion. As are everyone else's.
I always try to support my local businesses when and where I can. Cause I know that they do directly benefit me in some way eventually. Good example, I eat lunch every Saturday at a local hole in the wall deli. I pay 9 bucks for a sandwich, coke and a hand full of potato chips. I could go to sub way and get pretty much the same sandwich for half the price given the serving size. But that is because I have that option.
As for film, there is only one place in my town that sells film other than gold 200 or other consumer crap. If I want B&W or chrome I have to go to them. But funny they aren't open on the weekends and close pretty darn early during the week. So it is impossible to get to them unless I take off early from work. Cant afford to do that. So I buy from B&H or freestyle. Costs me a great deal less and I can do it in my underwear at 3 am on a tuesday. Try that one at your local shop.
Yes I have to wait a few days to get it and I can't get any personal help but I can't get that now.
Trust me if my local guy was open even a half day on Saturday, He would see me every other week. I have used him for development many times. Sure he is more expensive than the mail order and does damn nice work. But then again I can't be taking a half a day off to get film dropped off and another half day to get it picked up. Only to spend 2 times what the other online places charge.
That is just my 2 cents.

 

[i40west]

You know, it occurs to me that there's another angle here. I was buying film, paper, chemicals, whatever, from B&H before there was such a thing as online shopping. It is a real photo store, and it was The Place To Go even then. It's run by real people, it's probably one of the best retail operations I've ever been a customer of, and it deserves support at least as much as any other.

 

[wogster]

To hell with the little ma & pa film shops...may they all go out of business....we got B&H, FreeStyle, others....if those little stores want to rape us with horrible pricing let them eat kakaa....let the free market deal with them...it's not our job!

Suppose you find out Friday afternoon that you need 2 rolls of PanF for Saturday morning, you go into your film stock and OH S**T. You can order from Freestyle, but it's too late to get the order out that day, and their carrier doesn't have Saturday air service anyway. Buying a few "keep alive", rolls a year from the local guy to keep him selling film, is probably a good decision.

 

[SilverGlow]

Suppose you find out Friday afternoon that you need 2 rolls of PanF for Saturday morning, you go into your film stock and OH S**T. You can order from Freestyle, but it's too late to get the order out that day, and their carrier doesn't have Saturday air service anyway. Buying a few "keep alive", rolls a year from the local guy to keep him selling film, is probably a good decision.

Well, I never get in that bind as I plan ahead, however to humour your post a bit here, I would just grab my full frame digital camera and take care of business with that.

The day a business needs to rely on charity is the day it should change or close.

This is not about being rude, or nice....it's about the prime directive of a business: making money.

All you guys that think my posts are rude either never owned a business, or never took business classes in college...A business is not a benevolent society...and why should I "scratch" the small shop's back so that he rewards my patronage with sky high pricing?

Where is the logic in this thread? Am I the only one that gets it? Lots of confused people here....we consumers are NOT there for the edification of a business.....THEY are there for US....hello?!? In other words, THEY earn our business, not the other way around.

 

[fotch]

All you guys that think my posts are rude either never owned a business, or never took business classes in college..............

Where is the logic in this thread? Am I the only one that gets it? Lots of confused people here....

You’re wrong on this. You’re not the only business person to have posted in this thread. You insult other APUG readers with you statement "Lots of confused people here.." Have it ever occurred to you that others have different opinions and experiences than yours?

I started my first business in 1975 and sold it to a Fortune 50 company in 1981 for a substantial profit. I started my second business in 1979 and sold it in 1997 to a larger company for another capital gain. I have also owned several profitable small enterprises that either I folded when I lost interest in them and were not large enough to sell to another company.

I have also been either an officer or on a Board of several non-profits and made contributions.
Before starting my first business, I was employed at several Fortune 500 companies.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Your opinion may be based on your business experience. It may be right or wrong, same as with any other posters.

When I feel taken advantage of, I don’t like it. I disagree with you in thinking that all small retailers charge double or more of their cost. Some might, although you offered no evidence. Many do not.

I like most people and will give them the benefit of doubt. Maybe the price is high and their margin is low. Don’t buy from them if you cannot live with yourself because you wanted it cheaper.

Back before the internet, mail order was almost always cheaper. I remember when you could by Kodak Grey market film from the N.Y. mail order stores. Way cheaper if you bought any quantity even with shipping. Smaller local shops did not have any means to buy oversees like this.

I also am aware that consumers will often go to the local store to look at the item then buy Mail Order at prices that a small store pays. I have done it myself. As a businessman, I avoid trying to compete on price and can say, owning a camera store is a sure way of making a small fortune, provide you can start with a large fortune to begin with. So, many business persons are more hopeful than smart. I certainly do not wish them to go out of business even though I may never buy from them.

Like the tale of Ebenezer Scrooge, you may someday find yourself in a predicament and wish others would have some empathy for you. Only then, I think, your will understand.

 

[Ken N]

One of the most important things to a small retail establishment is foot traffic. Advertising is all about getting people to walk in the door. Once in the door salesmanship and proper product positioning (price, features, etc) take over and hopefully end in an exchange of goods for money. But none of that happens without the foot traffic.

Now, back in the day, many photographic retail establishments sold film at cost or even at a loss in hopes that the customer would pay for processing and prints, which was the real money machine, or occasionally but a camera, lens or high-priced accessory. These were called "loss-leaders".

Fast-Forward to today and what instigated this thread. We have a retailer that is charging massively for film. We've heard every excuse listed here as to why. But for the extremely low volume of film sales today, you'd think that considering film to be a "loss-leader" wouldn't be a bad thing.

Case in Point:

I very very rarely go to the big camera store in my area because of the excessive pricing strategy on those items I'm buying. I end up buying these items through B&H, Freestyle, Photographer's Formulary, etc. Every time I'm NOT walking in the door is a lost opportunity to sell me a new flash, a lens or even one of their new digital cameras or a used film camera.

No matter how you slice it and how much a retailer charges, film sales today is a money-losing proposition. It costs more to service the customer than what thin margin there is on the film itself. But unless I walk in the door to buy that film, the retailer has 0% chance of selling me anything else.

If you figure that it costs over $10 in advertising to entice one individual through the door, then breaking even or even losing $1 on a roll of film isn't a bad thing.

In my case, I was spending up to $5000 every year at the local camera stores for equipment, film, processing and printing. Now, I spend less than $100. That confiscatory pricing on film doesn't seem like such a bright idea now, does it?

 

[fotch]

One of the most important things to a small retail establishment is foot traffic. Advertising is all about getting people to walk in the door. Once in the door salesmanship and proper product positioning (price, features, etc) take over and hopefully end in an exchange of goods for money. But none of that happens without the foot traffic.

Now, back in the day, many photographic retail establishments sold film at cost or even at a loss in hopes that the customer would pay for processing and prints, which was the real money machine, or occasionally but a camera, lens or high-priced accessory. These were called "loss-leaders".

Fast-Forward to today and what instigated this thread. We have a retailer that is charging massively for film. We've heard every excuse listed here as to why. But for the extremely low volume of film sales today, you'd think that considering film to be a "loss-leader" wouldn't be a bad thing.

Case in Point:

I very very rarely go to the big camera store in my area because of the excessive pricing strategy on those items I'm buying. I end up buying these items through B&H, Freestyle, Photographer's Formulary, etc. Every time I'm NOT walking in the door is a lost opportunity to sell me a new flash, a lens or even one of their new digital cameras or a used film camera.

No matter how you slice it and how much a retailer charges, film sales today is a money-losing proposition. It costs more to service the customer than what thin margin there is on the film itself. But unless I walk in the door to buy that film, the retailer has 0% chance of selling me anything else.

If you figure that it costs over $10 in advertising to entice one individual through the door, then breaking even or even losing $1 on a roll of film isn't a bad thing.

In my case, I was spending up to $5000 every year at the local camera stores for equipment, film, processing and printing. Now, I spend less than $100. That confiscatory pricing on film doesn't seem like such a bright idea now, does it?

I agree. The camera store in post #1 would be better off not selling it altogether rather than having such a high price, regardless of the reason. As I said, "Don’t buy from them...". Plus, it leaves prospect with a bad impression. Not a good idea.