I'm sorry that you were offended by a viewpoint. Personal attacks are what are sad.
Film rape
-
A
- Thread starter Vonder
- Start date
Recent Classifieds
-
Want to Buy Kodak Polytoner
- Started by Guillaume Zuili
-
For Sale PLAUBEL MAKINA 67 GRIP
- Started by Guillaume Zuili
-
For Sale FS: Gundlach-Manhattan Hyperion Diffusion 7in f/4 Lens
- Started by B.S.Kumar
-
For Sale FS: Linhof Recessed lens board
- Started by dirkfletcher
Forum statistics
I'm sorry that you were offended by a viewpoint. Personal attacks are what are sad.
The concept of "humor" also warrants further investigation.
- Joined
- May 4, 2009
- Messages
- 113
- Format
- 35mm
Your original post had no hint of humor in it. Don't use that as an excuse, if you want to be a dick to people, admit it, instead of making up a lame excuse.
That being said, what maryphoto said has some validity. For most things, I order online. Books, music , sometimes clothing, I order it all online because it's mostly cheaper. The only things I don't order online are film and paper, because I buy them just before I need them. Plus I kind of like my local camera store. The employees aren't even really nice, I just like the idea that a store is still somewhat supporting film, so I support them.
If it needs a "hint" to be funny, then it probably isn't that funny. Yet another problem with the younger generations is that they seem to have to be told when something is funny. "OK, here comes a joke, peoples!" Dry humor is lost on so many people, and that truly is sad.
I do not need to make lame excuses to be a "dick". I am nothing if not honest. I do not think it right that further joking in an explanatory way qualifies as a lame excuse.
Additionally, I might even be considered a member of "the younger generations" (when is the cutoff anyhow?????), hence more funny. (Funny ha ha.)
The really cool thing about humor is that it is subjective. Even if some people do not get that it is humor, or get it but do not think it is funny, it is still humor. So, that you read no hint of humor in my post does not mean that there was not one.
Why so serious.......?
P.S. I am not "offended" by anything in this thread, except perhaps the price of the film!
I do not need to make lame excuses to be a "dick". I am nothing if not honest. I do not think it right that further joking in an explanatory way qualifies as a lame excuse.
Additionally, I might even be considered a member of "the younger generations" (when is the cutoff anyhow?????), hence more funny. (Funny ha ha.)
The really cool thing about humor is that it is subjective. Even if some people do not get that it is humor, or get it but do not think it is funny, it is still humor. So, that you read no hint of humor in my post does not mean that there was not one.
Why so serious.......?
P.S. I am not "offended" by anything in this thread, except perhaps the price of the film!
Last edited by a moderator:
If I had these in my house, I would probably continuously feel the urge to duck behind my chair to hide from the death rays I expect them to throw upon me, when all I want to do is I actually quietly sit down for a good listening session...
removed-user-1
I prefer to support local businesses but when the shop makes it apparent that they don't care if I walk through their door or not, I go elsewhere. When the price is almost 50% higher for something like a 120 roll of Ektar 100, it makes it that much easier to buy from B&H. If the customer service was still there I would pay the higher price, within reason. That's no longer the case.
Sorry, it is called Capitalism. Sellers can ask any price they want and buyers are free to say no. It is not rape, it is business.
~Steve Sloan
USA
~Steve Sloan
USA
If that shop charged $8 instead of $12 for the one roll they might sell enough to avoid having any unsold surplus to throw away.
Like in the Depression when a man came upon a boy selling apples for $1000... He said, "you won't be selling many apples at that price", and the boy replied, "I only need to sell ONE" !
In reality, people need to replace consumables and that drives visits to the store. If they are not comfortable going in for the consumables, then they are unlikely to enter at all.
With digital, we are rapidly approaching market satisfaction/saturation - where digital cameras are as good as they need to be when consumers no longer feel compelled to 'upgrade'.
Since there are no real consumables for digital cameras, the long term outlook for the local camera shop is dim.
To keep people coming in the door they need to offer services (printing) and consumables at high quality and a reasonable price.
Sure, the extra $4 'rape' won't keep the store in business but it could easily contribute to its failure.
Like in the Depression when a man came upon a boy selling apples for $1000... He said, "you won't be selling many apples at that price", and the boy replied, "I only need to sell ONE" !
In reality, people need to replace consumables and that drives visits to the store. If they are not comfortable going in for the consumables, then they are unlikely to enter at all.
With digital, we are rapidly approaching market satisfaction/saturation - where digital cameras are as good as they need to be when consumers no longer feel compelled to 'upgrade'.
Since there are no real consumables for digital cameras, the long term outlook for the local camera shop is dim.
To keep people coming in the door they need to offer services (printing) and consumables at high quality and a reasonable price.
Sure, the extra $4 'rape' won't keep the store in business but it could easily contribute to its failure.
With all due respect for every opinion expressed, I have to say some of these comments remind me of a sign I seen hanging in a bar years ago. It said If youre so damn smart, why aint your rich?
Most of those in business are interested in making a profit. Most of the buyers could care less.
Sad but true, therein lies the dilemma.
PS. I was only about 10 and was not drinking.
Most of those in business are interested in making a profit. Most of the buyers could care less.
Sad but true, therein lies the dilemma.
PS. I was only about 10 and was not drinking.
When i can buy 1 mail order film & shipping i still seam to save a 1.00 or 2.00. I know somthing locally ain't right.
Try buying it in Brazil, where a Tri-X 400 (when available) costs about USD 17
Really. What does a roll of Tri-X 36exp go for locally?
Three major mailorders would cost anywhere from $8.70 or more.
Example:
- Freestyle=Kodak TX 135-36 Tri-X $3.99 + All orders require a $25 product minimum.
- B&H=Kodak TX 135-36 Tri-X $3.45 + ups $4.95 or us mail $5.25
- Adorama= Kodak TX 135-36 Tri-X $3.45 + Standard Shipping 4-6 Business Days $8.00
I dare say that the local stores cannot possibly be making 50%. Their marked price may be 50% above the wholesale price, or maybe even 50% above the mail order price. But the overhead burden of a small shop it tremendously higher than a bigger mail order house.
I too order a fair amount of stuff from mail order sources, but it's not because I think the locals are highway robbers. Then again, most folks here think I'm insane because I keep advocating that folks (assuming you're in NA) buy 1 roll of Tri-X per month from a CVS drugstore at the outragous price just so that they keep the stuff on the shelf.
Those are US prices, for film in the USA now take the same $3.99 item, add shipping to Brazil, cross boarder shipping can be expensive, especially to countries where there isn't a high volume of stuff being shipped. Now add on customs and brokerage fees and it's quite possible that the $3.99 roll will be $27 by the time you go to the post office to pick it up. Sometimes this can be reduced by buying larger quantities, but that's only good if you use large enough amounts that the film doesn't expire on you.
Digital cameras are the consumables.Still, the outlook remains dim.
With any technology you get to the good enough stage, computers reached it in 2001, I think digital cameras will probably reach it in the next year or two. A bigger issue is that digital cameras, even prosumer class ones, are being sold by many of the big electronics retailers, and digital ink paper is being sold by big office supply retailers. This means that the traditional photography store will need to do one of two things.
Move back towards traditional (film) photography, or simply like the buggy whip store, go out of business.
I think that as digital hits the good-enough point, and major advances stop happening, then people who are interested in learning more and better imaging will look towards film as the next advancement. I think we actually hit the good enough point in 2008 and that there are few advances happening even now. The manufacturers will also need to look at a film comeback, to stay in business. The bottom end of the market is being taken over by the camera, phone, music player and computer in one type devices, these devices are replaced on an average 18 month cycle, and as they improve they will take over more and more of the compact camera market, where most of the profit for the camera companies is.
Will this be a huge market, well no, but big enough with consumables like film, paper, chemistries, processing to keep some shops and companies in business.
The problem IMHO is that in the days when 35mm film P&Ses were common, a local shop ("for local people" 
) was the most efficient way to distribute film to a large fraction of the population - the traffic was enough that their stocks were fresh and low per-item margins would cover the overheads easily. Those days are gone forever and now the market for film is not "2 rolls here and there for 80% of the population" but "50 rolls for 0.001% of the population" - basically the fine-arts people who've picked up the MF and LF gear cast off by commercial photographers. Once you reach that point of tiny traffic, having a mini film warehouse (the shop) in each town makes no sense whatsoever - the cheapest and most efficient way is now for the end consumer to pay $10-30 in shipping on their order of 20-100 rolls of film from a massive warehouse that has very low overheads. The local shop cannot compete because a $30 profit every few months from the handful of film photographers in a large city is nowhere near enough to cover their overheads. It probably doesn't even pay for the floorspace that the film fridge uses.
Here in Perth, there are TWO film stores within walking distance of my apartment (and 300m of each other), which is sort of unbelievable except that they live off digital equipment sales and feel the urge to hold a few film items to look professional or something - so I get my developer and fixer there. They both charge about $10/roll for basic B&W film and about $25/roll for Velvia. Needless to say, I don't buy my film there unless I'm *really* stuck or I see something interesting on the shelf (rare but it happens). I'd not be surprised if they have no or negative margin at those prices and yet the prices are still at least 100% too high to be competitive. It's not the shop's fault, it's just that local shops are an inefficient way of distributing goods to a small and scattered market; they exist IMHO only by reason of inertia.
So, I support a dedicated online analogue retailer instead: I still save more than 50% including shipping it all right across the globe. And if they didn't exist, I'd have no qualms going to B&H - after all, I'm still buying film and Fuji and Ilford are still getting my money. I see no point in "supporting the local guy" because the local guy is an anachronism. If you want film to continue to be available (honestly, that doesn't bother me a lot - it seems that film use is growing in MF and LF), all that matters is that you consume film, and lots of it. Fuji, Kodak and Ilford are the ones that matter, not the storefronts that you give your money to. Therefore, I think it behooves us all to find the cheapest and most efficient route from the manufacturers to our fridges and use the savings to buy and use more film.
) was the most efficient way to distribute film to a large fraction of the population - the traffic was enough that their stocks were fresh and low per-item margins would cover the overheads easily. Those days are gone forever and now the market for film is not "2 rolls here and there for 80% of the population" but "50 rolls for 0.001% of the population" - basically the fine-arts people who've picked up the MF and LF gear cast off by commercial photographers. Once you reach that point of tiny traffic, having a mini film warehouse (the shop) in each town makes no sense whatsoever - the cheapest and most efficient way is now for the end consumer to pay $10-30 in shipping on their order of 20-100 rolls of film from a massive warehouse that has very low overheads. The local shop cannot compete because a $30 profit every few months from the handful of film photographers in a large city is nowhere near enough to cover their overheads. It probably doesn't even pay for the floorspace that the film fridge uses.Here in Perth, there are TWO film stores within walking distance of my apartment (and 300m of each other), which is sort of unbelievable except that they live off digital equipment sales and feel the urge to hold a few film items to look professional or something - so I get my developer and fixer there. They both charge about $10/roll for basic B&W film and about $25/roll for Velvia. Needless to say, I don't buy my film there unless I'm *really* stuck or I see something interesting on the shelf (rare but it happens). I'd not be surprised if they have no or negative margin at those prices and yet the prices are still at least 100% too high to be competitive. It's not the shop's fault, it's just that local shops are an inefficient way of distributing goods to a small and scattered market; they exist IMHO only by reason of inertia.
So, I support a dedicated online analogue retailer instead: I still save more than 50% including shipping it all right across the globe. And if they didn't exist, I'd have no qualms going to B&H - after all, I'm still buying film and Fuji and Ilford are still getting my money. I see no point in "supporting the local guy" because the local guy is an anachronism. If you want film to continue to be available (honestly, that doesn't bother me a lot - it seems that film use is growing in MF and LF), all that matters is that you consume film, and lots of it. Fuji, Kodak and Ilford are the ones that matter, not the storefronts that you give your money to. Therefore, I think it behooves us all to find the cheapest and most efficient route from the manufacturers to our fridges and use the savings to buy and use more film.
Firstly, thanks for that link - I'll look into it. Currently, as no local camera stores stock anything much in the way of B&W film, I get mine 10 rolls at a time from an on-line retailer whose major business is serving the education sector. Service is terrific - usually overnight to my home - and prices are better than any local outlet where FP4+ and HP5+ are the only options. Nevertheless he does charge more than the landed price from B&H or Freestyle, but the offset is I don't have to order larger quantities to utilise the freight cost or wait for delivery. And he ahs a pretty good range of film, paper and chemicals to choose from.
The local store issue is very real here. My local camera store owner who had a thriving business a handful of years ago now struggles to make it all work. People don't even print their digital images, preferring to leave them in the camera or their computer. Camera hardware sales are even trickier. The local discount chains are selling digital P&S cameras at prices below those my local camera shop guy can even buy at!
The local store issue is very real here. My local camera store owner who had a thriving business a handful of years ago now struggles to make it all work. People don't even print their digital images, preferring to leave them in the camera or their computer. Camera hardware sales are even trickier. The local discount chains are selling digital P&S cameras at prices below those my local camera shop guy can even buy at!
Very interesting thread.....Here is a point to ponder.......
If the big manufacturer's cared about the "little" guy or independent shop, they would lower the prices on film so the little shop could be competitive with the mail order houses.....Now, the manufacturer will say they can't sell lower to the smaller places...BS...The manufacturer's price per roll is the same whether a store buys 1 roll or 1000!!....Is B&H or Freestyle going to drop selling Ilford or Kodak film if those companies lower prices to the little guys? Of course they won't. But that's what the manufacturers will tell you.
It's the same when some companies sell direct from their website....And charge full retail. Their explanation is that they don't want to be in competition with the retailers....So, they only sell at full price. And make even more money. If they did not want to be in competition with their retailers, they would not be selling online at all!! Just pure greed!!
If the big manufacturer's cared about the "little" guy or independent shop, they would lower the prices on film so the little shop could be competitive with the mail order houses.....Now, the manufacturer will say they can't sell lower to the smaller places...BS...The manufacturer's price per roll is the same whether a store buys 1 roll or 1000!!....Is B&H or Freestyle going to drop selling Ilford or Kodak film if those companies lower prices to the little guys? Of course they won't. But that's what the manufacturers will tell you.
It's the same when some companies sell direct from their website....And charge full retail. Their explanation is that they don't want to be in competition with the retailers....So, they only sell at full price. And make even more money. If they did not want to be in competition with their retailers, they would not be selling online at all!! Just pure greed!!
I certainly don't know about film, but the two manufacturing companies I've worked for it has indeed cost more to sell to small customers than large ones. The price of the product isn't determined at the end of the production line, it includes all the costs of storage and getting the product to the customer.
Just some random thoughts from my experience moving from small volume shipments to trailer load only volume.
Reduced staff on floor... full loads improve pounds shipped per hour numbers
more order volume, no increase in shipped volume...what is the benefit?
rather than truckload it goes LTL (less than a truck load) much higher cost
rather than full cases broken cases...more labor to pick orders, more inventory time, dock areas not used with efficiency
rather than just having case lot SKU's... may require additional SKU's for individual parts of the case, more SKU's more issues
case or partial case orders vs truckload may require a supermarket type picking area, not a good use of floor space
production planning may be effected. Length of product runs may be altered to insure inventory available to small customers
LTL type customers generally provide less lead time for production planning. Inventory costs money, may be borrowed money, or at least it is tying up money that could be used for other purposes (generating a better return).
Sorry about the ramble, but in many industries it is not the same cost to service big or little customers. I suspect film is no different.
On the online sales... many companies have agreements/contracts with their distributors to not undercut pricing. Yes, it generates additional profit
Mike
Just some random thoughts from my experience moving from small volume shipments to trailer load only volume.
Reduced staff on floor... full loads improve pounds shipped per hour numbers
more order volume, no increase in shipped volume...what is the benefit?
rather than truckload it goes LTL (less than a truck load) much higher cost
rather than full cases broken cases...more labor to pick orders, more inventory time, dock areas not used with efficiency
rather than just having case lot SKU's... may require additional SKU's for individual parts of the case, more SKU's more issues
case or partial case orders vs truckload may require a supermarket type picking area, not a good use of floor space
production planning may be effected. Length of product runs may be altered to insure inventory available to small customers
LTL type customers generally provide less lead time for production planning. Inventory costs money, may be borrowed money, or at least it is tying up money that could be used for other purposes (generating a better return).
Sorry about the ramble, but in many industries it is not the same cost to service big or little customers. I suspect film is no different.
On the online sales... many companies have agreements/contracts with their distributors to not undercut pricing. Yes, it generates additional profit
Mike
Last edited by a moderator:
Film manufacturers should be promoting sales in every manner possible, given the shrunken market. There certainly is no justification for charging small retailers a higher price than big box stores or mail order houses. Especially considering the tiny impact small retailers present.
Given the warehouse/shipping scenario above, it's a simple effort to move small orders to a little corner of the warehouse and using UPS or Federal Express to send them out.
Local sores also keep the photo film products in the consumers view and consciousness.
When you think of overall film sales in the 1950s and 1960s I'm sure they sell more today than back then. Heck, I remember film and processing being dear enough when I was a kid that my parents only used 3 or 4 rolls a year!
Given the warehouse/shipping scenario above, it's a simple effort to move small orders to a little corner of the warehouse and using UPS or Federal Express to send them out.
Local sores also keep the photo film products in the consumers view and consciousness.
When you think of overall film sales in the 1950s and 1960s I'm sure they sell more today than back then. Heck, I remember film and processing being dear enough when I was a kid that my parents only used 3 or 4 rolls a year!
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2002
- Messages
- 504
- Format
- 35mm RF
Didn't the internet help contribute to this change? I order my stuff on line. Yesterday I placed an order with B&H. It was shipped moments ago, prepaid, the next day and I have the UPS tracking # and it will be delivered to my studio this Friday. Freestyle is just like B&H. Didn't have to walk or go anywhere! Fun! The same goes for the lab I use, WHCC. I transmit my print orders via the internet and if they are placed by 10 AM, even 11 AM the order is at my door the next day with albums and things like canvas wrapped prints taking two days.
The service from these firms is simply amazing.
I work at providing the same service for my clients.
And yes I'm back using B&W film for my gigs!
The service from these firms is simply amazing.
I work at providing the same service for my clients.
And yes I'm back using B&W film for my gigs!
Leigh: 10 rolls is pushing it; think 30 and you'll make a decent saving. You should also look at Vanbar; they have a sydney outlet I think.
tequilabong: it's not discrimination against the little guy, it's that it's more difficult and more expensive to deliver smaller quantities. Think of it as shipping cost to the seller: a warehouse can buy a pallet of film (about 35,000 rolls at a guess) and international shipping will be maybe $200 plus $50 handling costs at the factory. Or you can buy a carton of maybe 500 rolls and pay $30 shipping, plus $50 handling costs at the factory. Little guy is paying 22x as much handling costs. And how many stores can sell 500 rolls while they're fresh (about a year)? Most are probably selling 100.
100 rolls with $7 profit = NOTHING.
35,000 rolls with $2 profit = an income.
wblynch's parents bought 2-3 rolls per year and with a 150M US popn, that's probably 150M rolls/year or rather 50,000 rolls from a town of 50,000 - at which point buying a pallet of film for your local shop makes sense. Now we're talking numbers much much smaller, maybe 1000x smaller is what retailers are seeing.
Yes, manufacturers could vertically integrate (include distribution) but to them that's just boring overhead. Much more efficient to get a dedicated logistics firm that also carries cameras, lights, filters, etc to transport your film to stores and/or customers.
tequilabong: it's not discrimination against the little guy, it's that it's more difficult and more expensive to deliver smaller quantities. Think of it as shipping cost to the seller: a warehouse can buy a pallet of film (about 35,000 rolls at a guess) and international shipping will be maybe $200 plus $50 handling costs at the factory. Or you can buy a carton of maybe 500 rolls and pay $30 shipping, plus $50 handling costs at the factory. Little guy is paying 22x as much handling costs. And how many stores can sell 500 rolls while they're fresh (about a year)? Most are probably selling 100.
100 rolls with $7 profit = NOTHING.
35,000 rolls with $2 profit = an income.
wblynch's parents bought 2-3 rolls per year and with a 150M US popn, that's probably 150M rolls/year or rather 50,000 rolls from a town of 50,000 - at which point buying a pallet of film for your local shop makes sense. Now we're talking numbers much much smaller, maybe 1000x smaller is what retailers are seeing.
Yes, manufacturers could vertically integrate (include distribution) but to them that's just boring overhead. Much more efficient to get a dedicated logistics firm that also carries cameras, lights, filters, etc to transport your film to stores and/or customers.
Even at 22x the handling costs, that $50 boils down to only 10 cents per roll.
Again, if they lowered the price they'd sell all 500 rolls and get customers in the door.
-Bill L.
Again, if they lowered the price they'd sell all 500 rolls and get customers in the door.
-Bill L.
Only if they have 500 rolls worth of customers on their doorstep (i.e. are nearly the only store in a 1M+ city) or willing to sell online. In the latter case, they should hope to move tens of thousands of rolls and hence are no longer a storefront but an online warehouse paying storefront rent, which is a bit stupid.
500 rolls at $2 profit is still nothing. It does not make a viable store.
The problem is the physical fragmentation of the market. If you restrict yourself to selling locally, at any margin, you cannot sell enough to be profitable. If you go for the global market you can be profitable, but your storefront (if any) will be an unjustifiable rental overhead compared to backstreet warehouse area. Storefront sales of low-volume goods just does not work; it only worked for film in the past because volumes were much higher with every adult buying.
It's time to get over buying from a storefront. If you own one, I'm sorry, it sucks, but that's the current market. Sell something else.
500 rolls at $2 profit is still nothing. It does not make a viable store.
The problem is the physical fragmentation of the market. If you restrict yourself to selling locally, at any margin, you cannot sell enough to be profitable. If you go for the global market you can be profitable, but your storefront (if any) will be an unjustifiable rental overhead compared to backstreet warehouse area. Storefront sales of low-volume goods just does not work; it only worked for film in the past because volumes were much higher with every adult buying.
It's time to get over buying from a storefront. If you own one, I'm sorry, it sucks, but that's the current market. Sell something else.
| Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links. To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here. |
PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:  |