Film rape

[Ken N]

This is a free country I live in. I vote with my wallet where I'm going to spend my hard-earned money. Having worked photo retail in years past I'm well aware of the markups and narrow margins on some things and whenever possible I always try to give the local shops my business, but when my average film order is $200 higher buying locally, you can be sure that I'm not going to go there. B&H, Freestyle and Photographer's Formulary get the bulk of my analog orders. When I buy new digital cameras I price compare again and the differences are usually in the $200 range.

If the local shops can't be competitive, any propping up of them now only delays the inevitable. Sad but true.

 

[GeorgeDexter]

One person can't elect a President, nor can one customer save a store. It takes a dedicated decision by a large group of people. Each group is made up by individiuals, however. Like you. When everybody else thinks somebody else will do it, then nobody ends up doing it. And the sad truth is, your dollar probably matters more than your vote.

 

[Moose38]

Ken your so right. The question is how long do we have. I sometimes now feel like were living on our last life line with film. Then sombody will yell Clear. We might get a new film product. ( Like Kodak Ektar Film) Then all in matter a day's the rythem starts dying again. I telling yeah companies who really care about film could do a better job in extending a life line. ( like prices)

 

[Moose38]

One person can't elect a President, nor can one customer save a store. It takes a dedicated decision by a large group of people. Each group is made up by individiuals, however. Like you. When everybody else thinks somebody else will do it, then nobody ends up doing it. And the sad truth is, your dollar probably matters more than your vote.

I do my my part but i can't do it all alone. So because of that i have to watch how, when & where i spend my funds. I can't keep film all by myself going. (You know what i mean.) In fact i still don't own one digital camera. I don't even have the means to show my images in this gallery. Reality is i'm such a purrist i can't stand the idea of my images be converted to a digital file. I know i'll get all kinds of feedback from that. I do this as a hobby i don't make very much at all off my work. So i can control the means of how it's viewed & scene. Don't get me wrong i enjoy others work on here. But the purrist way to me only enforces the Analog way. It may be the HARD WAY but it's my WAY!!!

 

[JMC1969]

I telling yeah companies who really care about film could do a better job in extending a life line. ( like prices)

That "better job" would have to come directly from the manufacture or the distributing companies. Because, as I have said, we are nearly giving the film away at cost just to get people to shoot it.

If what Apug user Maris says here:

Remember, that 120 roll of Acros that retails for $7 probably leaves the factory for $1.

is true, then it is really nether the manufacture nor the local shops that are controlling/causes the high increases in film prices. Honestly, I am not privy to the inside information of Freestyles dealing with the film makers that provide the ability to offer Arista films. However, it does seem to put the thought in ones head, that film as a whole does not need to be as expensive as it is. Not for you, not for me. I assume they are buying master rolls.

 

[Moose38]

I bet your right.

 

[doughowk]

Most of the members on APUG want film to continue to be available. So you either have to buy alot of film or encourage others to also use film. How do we do that? By giving them a link to B&H? I think not. But if that's where you buy your film and encourage others to do the same out of a misguided sense of frugality, you will be sending novices to a largely digital store. Short-sighted, as I said earlier.

 

[Moose38]

BestBuy is a digital store. B&H is big now. They still carry film cameras. Or at least what is still made. But they got big by working there arses off & becomming big. I remember the old day's when shutter bug was a real magazine. It was really like a newspaper. This was the days before the internet. Those were the days when they ran a catalog of used equitment in the back. Most of there ads were 15 & 20 pages. If you wanted any of that used gear you had to be the first to get the latest issue before what you wanted got baught out. Now like digital that magazine is NO where as good as it used to be. I'm told i lived in the past because i shoot film.Any body who would pay 5000.00 for a pro digital camera that all it does is shoot pictures that look like you put the DVD on PAUSE is the crazy person. I can do that with out buying a DSLR.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

The small local store where I live charges $7.95 your store is just screwing you.

 

[mikebarger]

This is going to sound negative, but it's not meant to. Just an observation.

I don't know if knowledgeable sales people are as needed today as they were before the internet. With the glut of used equipment I doubt I've ever have the desire to buy new equipment again, and I bought my share in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. Everything I buy now is used.

Also, I don't need to go to the local camera store for a knowledge base anymore. The web contains much more information than what I ever got at the local shop, and it's a good shop. No one person, or staff, is going to have all the details that are available online (APUG is a perfect example). Ask a question here and in no time you have what your looking for.

The time of towns being spaced apart based on how far you could travel riding a horse in a day are long gone. I don't think anything can save the local totally analog shop, if there is such an animal still around. Business models are in a constant state of revision and it will only get worse/better as communication technology continues to improve.

Change is difficult, but is a fact of life. Makes no difference if it is transitioning from riding a horse to driving a hybrid or moving from buying at the local brick and mortar analog camera store to buying on the internet.

Mike

 

[GrantR]

I guess I can only speak for my store--but coming into my shop, I feel like is more like coming into a friendly neighborhood bar. Sure the beer is more expensive than you could get at a grocery store (or online, I guess), but you get to interact in a social environment with other patrons as well as receiving advice of the "expert" behind the counter on questions regarding new films, alternative processing methods, paper selection.

 

[mikebarger]

Grant

Sounds like you have a neat shop. The ones I've been in over the last 5 or 6 years have changed into digital stores with a small analog section or have reduced their staff so far you have to wait a long time to talk with the guy at the counter. These types of shops have pushed me to the net. In an earlier post I indicated I had a percentage over online prices I was willing to pay locally until the photo section just got to small.

Glad you're able to keep this type of shop open, and wish you well.

I drink my beer at Bruno's, not at home.


Mike

 

[JMC1969]

I like that outlook a lot Grant.


Mike, I don't know if I necessarily disagree with you. Having a dedicated sales staff probably isn't needed anymore. But, the staff that run the rest of the business should have at least parts of that knowledge in order give the customer the self assurance that they are leaving their product in capable hands. In "Parts" I mean not everyone needs to know everything and you probably only need a couple that know each. I certainly don't know everything, nor do the rest of the staff, but, put us together and we can generally answer the questions of concern. Today's shop needs to do a little bit of everything and have the knowledge to do so. The days of being a niche shop, I to believe are over. However, as blind as I might be, I still feel like I am of use to my community. Of course growing to accommodate all aspects of photography requires more equipment and in turn more overhead. So we need it all to work and the support of the community we are trying to serve.

As I mentioned, I would like to see someday that we are able to offer used equipment, but never new. I have seen too many people enter stores and tell stories of entering store just to touch the item. Then to return home and purchase online to save $50 or $150 without ever take a moment to think that they just spent that much of a store owner's money for the time they wasted. I would not see our employees go through that or have the businesses' money wasted like that. But used equipment each have small differences.

As this thread continues, i still don't understand how anyone can post that a local store is deliberately trying to screw somebody. Because your local store sell a roll of film for $8 and another for $12 doesn't mean a thing. If your store is like us, they are giving you that film for $8 which is probably less than it cost to carry it for you. Your store may own their building or have a $1500 a month rent. His, might be paying $8000 a month because of the town they are in or the street they are on. Again, I could just be fooling myself, but I still think these shop owners are shop owners to support you and their interest.


P.S. Thanks Doug

 

[mark]

It is not worth arguing about. I am a local business owner. I see what my peers are doing, what they are charging for it and my mechanics clean up a lot of the MUCH more expensive places screw up. It is naive to think everyone opens a business to benefit the local community. They open the shop to make money. That is what business is all about. You get customers by being knowledgable, nice and charging a fair price. You keep them that way too. SOME folks feel, since they are the only game in town, people HAVE to come to them. Their attitudes reflect it.

 

[Ken N]

As this thread continues, i still don't understand how anyone can post that a local store is deliberately trying to screw somebody. Because your local store sell a roll of film for $8 and another for $12 doesn't mean a thing. If your store is like us, they are giving you that film for $8 which is probably less than it cost to carry it for you. Your store may own their building or have a $1500 a month rent. His, might be paying $8000 a month because of the town they are in or the street they are on. Again, I could just be fooling myself, but I still think these shop owners are shop owners to support you and their interest.
P.S. Thanks Doug

I'll tell you why it's an issue. I can buy absolutely anything and everything I want online. Period. But I go into the local store on occasion to buy a film-shaped doodad. While I'm buying that film-shaped doodad I'm looking through the store and happen to see other doodads, sometimes a camera-shaped doodad, sometimes a flash-shaped doodad or a tripod-shaped doodad or a reflector-shaped doodad. Once in a while, even a lens-shaped doodad.

Did I "need" any of those other doodads on that day? Maybe, maybe not. But out comes the VISA card and the inventory of doodads has been decreased.

If said store has their price of film-shaped doodads set too high, I just end up buying it online and I don't step foot in the store. The MOST important thing for the survival of almost any retailer is foot-traffic. Retailers do not survive on selling what the customer came in the store to buy, but on the things the customer bought without planning to buy.

This is why I have a HUGE problem with the local stores pricing consumables like film too high. It's a short-term gain, but a guaranteed beginning of the end of their business. This is a common strategy--when a business sees the sales of something start to drop off, they RAISE the price to counter the decreased revenue of the item which then completely causes the sales of that item to stop.

Ten years ago I was buying all of my film from the local camera store and ten years ago I was buying plenty of other stuff from the same store--including the doodads mentioned above. Price was always a little higher than B&H, but not enough to be an issue. But, if just in the last year I bought all my stuff from the local store, it would have been almost $1000 bogey to do so. That is what the difference was for me in one year! Because of this just under $1000 difference in pricing, they also lost out in several thousand dollars in sales with me altogether.

But what about the service from said store? Yeah, right. I don't get the time of day from them because I'm not interested in buying a brand new Canon or Nikon DSLR. "We haven't seen an Olympus in here in 10 years--new or used. Are they still in business?"

Back to film--I've tried working with said retailer on bulk film purchase discount. Not even interested.

So, this is the story of my nightmare. Back in the day, this actually was a decent store and i used to enjoy going there.

 

[Pylon757]

I'm pretty fortunate my local camera store's decently cheap with B&W stuff, as there's two big high schools around town and a flood of photography students with a voracious demand for B&W film and paper. I can get HP5+ for around $4 a roll(35mm), which is cheaper than Adorama when you factor in shipping. Other Ilford films are rarely $.50 above Adorama's price. Color on the other hand is a massacre...$11 for a roll of 35mm Velvia vs $6.25 on Adorama.

 

[mikebarger]

Doug

I don't own a business so I don't know swat about running one, but....I think the analog guys are going to be niche shops if they are going to survive. They are going to have to get physically smaller to reduce overhead and do like Ken mentions above, sell consumables without much markup and sell used equipment and accessories and process film to make ends meet. Will there be exceptions to this, sure.

I'd really like going to a small place like that, film guys with minimal digital and used equipment to buy. Now will that business model fly, I've got not a clue.

Mike

 

[JMC1969]

Mike,
Just to clarify that I was Thanking member Doug for being a supporter of our shop at the end of my last post. It was not a signature, but I can see how it could be misconstrued as such. Sorry about that. The small niche shop is where we started and it was not enough to keep the doors open. That being said, I still think we could be considered the small place you are talking about. 6 people in an old Victorian house packed to the gills service equipment and some consumables.

Ken,
I would like to make it understood that I do understand why it's an ISSUE, I don't understand why people continue to claim they are being screwed by the shop owners. They wouldn't have made it this far if that was their business practices. Does this scenario really seem logical to anybody?

2 shop employees standing at the front window.
1 spots a customer and turns to the other to say: "Here comes one of those photographer types. See if you can get him to by that 8 dollar roll of film for 12 bucks". 2nd employee: "Yeah, the extra 4 dollars will be the talk of the shop. This should be a real hoot". "Shh, here he comes".

It just doesn't make any since, You, me and everyone else, including them knows they are not selling enough film for that $4 to make any difference at all. I do understand how it is hard to pull that kind of money out of your pocket to purchase 1 roll of film, I have the same problem. My issue is that people seem to think it is because we are somehow taking advantage of you. You can't take advantage of something you don't have and what we don't have is the bulk of your film purchasing. It's a convenience thing, you come in to pick up your other work and in case you want to shoot some more today, here's a way for you to do so. Hopefully, you will bring it back to us for processing, proof prints, and hopefully you get something you really love and need a large print.

As far as you being sold on every little doodad in the store, that's called personal weakness. Apuger's like to call it G.A.S and we all have it or we wouldn't put so much time into talking about this stuff.

I know what I am saying here is a little like talking about religion. You believe your way and not in theirs, they believe in their way and not in yours. Others don't believe any of it and no matter what the other one says, they are still not going to be swayed to the other belief. So, I will not say anymore about this.

I will however, go back to asking a question of members here and it is one I believe that Doug was trying to ask as well.

This is a genuine question so please don't assume I am passing judgement on you from your answer.

Do you care about the real future of film and what lies ahead for it? Or, do you care about your personal need of film and self satisfaction for the here and now and feel you ultimately have no control of the future anyway?

I ask this because it is my personal belief that the future of anything lies in the hands of the next generation. That generation is already being born and raised on digital imaging. They have no idea what film is unless you tell them. So, if you are at a cafe, a few blocks away from your local camera/film store, your camera in hand, a youngster questions you about it. They are interested and want to know where they can buy some film for Dad's old camera or even see/purchase a film camera. Do you send them the few blocks away or do you have them take out their iphone/blackberry, go online and order at B&H? Because these are people that are the future and all they know is point my phone/DSLR and get a picture, right here, right now. Not, order film, get it in the post 2-3 days later, shoot it without knowing whether the image is captured (because they don't necessarily understand the basics of a camera), send it through the mail to have processed, receive it 1-2 weeks later. Pictures? No Pictures? I don't think too many of them are going to jump on that train with enthusiasm. Without local labs/shops, that is the future the next generation is going encounter. Once we are gone, where is film if it can't be had with some form of immediate gratification to the ones that expect it? Like I say, this is my opinion and by no means does that make it right, but I have a vested interest in a question like this as a lover of film photography and my career path.

Thank You,
Jody

 

[jcarxen]

This is truly a wonderful discussion and I simply want to mention my experience. Much of the talk here revolves around choice; that is, choosing to visit the "local" dealer or the internet.

What about when that "local" dealer is part of a nationwide chain operation? Is this dealer actually "local" as it has been expressed in this thread? My "local" photo store, the only one in my town, sells televisions, telescopes, sound systems, digital photographic gear, and provides abysmal print processing. In fact, I consider my community to be without a local photo store.

So, returning to choice: Do I actually have a choice if I want to purchase film? No. Online is the sole place that I can find it or any other film-based equipment. In other words, supporting the "local" store is a wonderful idea put forth by some; however, please keep in mind that not all of us have the luxury of making such a choice. Yes, I shop online exclusively because I am unable to choose otherwise. I am sure that there are others in the same situation.

 

[mikebarger]

I'll try to answer your question, but looking at the future is a guess at best.

Both of my girls, 35 and 40, shoot film for important stuff and digital for everything else. I suspect as technology improves my grandchildren will be primarily digital, unless they they want to tinker with my old camera's.

I don't think film's future is tied to local shops surviving (sorry), but tied to how many master rolls are consumed. Some of the big guys (film/paper manufacturers) will go away, then the second tier guys and maybe one of the big guys will support film.

Communication technology is only going to become better and faster. I don't think when kids find grandpa's camera that they will have any trouble finding out anything they want to know about it online, including using it, how does film work, how to expose properly, and any other thing they want to know about the camera and process.

I don't think waiting on film or pictures will be a big deal to them because digital will be their first choice for pictures. Buying online won't be second nature to them, it will be their primary method. Grandpa's camera will be for fun, a hobby.

I had a 48 Plymouth until last year and I never envisioned it as a primary source of transportation even though my dad was convinced it was the best post war car built, my everyday car/truck are modern. But, it was a fun hobby car that I enjoyed tinkering with. Somewhere down the road I think that will be the primary role of film camera's, fun to use but not replacing a digital as the primary capture method (heck it probably isn't now for most people).

Anyway, who knows what the future holds. I'm just sure there will be many changes and they will continue to come faster and faster. Heck, I'm still waiting for people to come to their senses and start buying 10 inch reel to reel players again. Everyone that hears mine through a BIG Marantz receiver and speakers are amazed at the sound, but not one asks where they can buy one. They drive off and turn on a CD, MP3 player, or satellite radio.

Think I'll shoot some 4x5 tomorrow.

Mike

 

[removed account4]

local store ... i go in looking for tmax 400 4x5 film ..
( just in case i get in a jam and need some quick )
saw some on the shelf ( had dust all over it ).
their price was $100 / 100 sheet box!
wiped the dust off, noticed the film *expired* 1996 ... ( it was 2000 )
i asked for the store manager and asked if they would knock something off
since it was OLD ( and too expensive! ) he said : nope, sorry, that's the price .....

haven't been back since ....

i believe in supporting the little guy, unless there is nothing worth supporting.

btw i bought the same film, new/fresh from b/h for 65$

 

[moouers]

Everyone that hears mine through a BIG Marantz receiver and speakers are amazed at the sound, but not one asks where they can buy one. They drive off and turn on a CD, MP3 player, or satellite radio.

I wouldn't ask where to buy them because I'd bring you over to my house and play some music on my speakers.

This is, of course, assuming I win the lottery.

 

[2F/2F]

You bought it, therefore it was not too expensive.

I would not have done so, because it was too expensive.

 

[marylandphoto]

I don't know if its because I'm young, but I rarely shop at a brick and mortar store, for anything. I just think people are getting accustomed to doing research based on online articles or asking on message boards instead of asking sales staff, and doing things in the comfort of their home, with far more choices available at cheaper prices. I don't mean to shaft the locals, it's just that this is how it's always been for me.

 

[2F/2F]

...I rarely shop at a brick and mortar store, for anything.

That is sad and pathetic. There's this thing called "society" that most of the rest of the world seems to have, but against which we seem to have something in the States. It seems that further research is in order for the younger generations.