Film rape

mikebarger · Jan 27, 2010

I was beginning to think I was the only one that thought that.

When I lived in Topeka we had a decent local store, I kinda had a rule of thumb of not spending more than 20% for small items and not more than 10% on large items compared to the web.

It was funny, sometimes they were actually cheaper than B&H (not often though) and many they were within my limits.

Now I'm in Rolla with a very small shop that mainly processes film. They seem pretty high, and offer prints no better than the run of the mill cut rates. Real nice guy though.

So....now I'm 100% online and it seems to be OK.

Mike

eddym · Jan 27, 2010

I'm just wondering why the OP or anybody else in his town is not getting rich by purchasing TMax 3200 from B&H for $5.50 a roll (or whatever) and reselling it to the local photographers for $9.00, thus making a handsome profit margin and undercutting the $12 a roll store...
Sounds like a fantastic business opportunity, no?

[/tongue in cheek]

erikg · Jan 27, 2010

Rape? To describe it as such is offensive in itself. No one forced you to buy that roll of film. You should let your feelings be known to the owners, I'm sure they want to be as competitive as they can, but you have to know they can't beat mail order on price alone. At my local shop I see the sales staff spending tons of time showing gear to people, sharing a lot of info and insight. I wonder how many sales they actually close. Some folks have no problem using the shop as a resource while buying online. Hard to see that resource lasting long like that. Try to get some advice from B&H. Yikes.

GrantR · Jan 27, 2010

I have to chime in here and agree--I opened a tiny film specialty store and public darkroom here in SC about 2 years ago, and because of online retailers, I would have to sell my film at close to cost to compete with B&H and Adorama--both of which sell their film at literally a few cents above what it costs me to buy from the first tier distributor. Because of this, I have to rely on all of the services I offer--be it processing, printing or teaching, and If I don't get enough of those, I don't get paid. These online retailers are hurting all brick and mortar stores and I would say that it's exactly analogous to these new digital shooters, charging a hundred dollars to shoot a wedding on the side of their actual job. They can get 5 weddings, do a marginal job, and have enough money to buy new gear, whereas real photographers are getting the shaft because they're being undercut so badly.

that was ramble-y.

Maris · Jan 27, 2010

I say kick the middlemen out of the system. No one really needs them. On-line ordering supported by modern delivery systems could work direct from factory to user with benefits for both parties.

Recently I tried to buy a Manfrotto tripod head from my local camera store. Their wholesale buying price from Manfrotto Australia was way higher than KEH's price to me for the same thing. And that includes all the expenses of getting that tripod head from the USA to Australia, currency conversion costs, and taxes.

Sometimes the local distributor, I reckon, can be a downright obstructive factor. Fujifilm Australia won't support Fuji Acros sheet film and Fuji B&W photographic paper. Frankly I'd rather order those things direct and fresh from Fujifilm in Japan. Plus I'd be prepared to pay a proper price to the people who actually make film. Remember, that 120 roll of Acros that retails for $7 probably leaves the factory for $1. What if I could pay them $3? They could triple their return, keep their film coating plant rolling, and I could halve my costs.

Sad to say, but I think true, the days of importers, wholesalers, distributors, and retailers are numbered. The future of photography depends on a lean and efficient connection between makers and consumers.

doughowk · Jan 27, 2010

We as consumers are extremely short-sighted whether shopping at the big box stores or online. Quality and knowledgeable service deteriorate while we save a few bucks. And our jobs continue to go elsewhere. Lemmings!

Online photography stores, if they followed the lead of Amazon, could provide a much needed service of supplying the scarce, hard-to-find items that the brick & mortar can't provide. Amazon isn't profitable from selling the best sellers, rather they sell "many of few" just as with Netflix. B&H could learn from them.

GeorgeDexter · Jan 27, 2010

That's fine if you live in NY.

mcfactor said:
Acutally, B&H has done plenty for the area where it is located, on 34st and 9th ave in NYC. A major amount of tourist visit the area and spend money in the city. Not only because of B&H, but it does help a lot. By the way, B&H employs roughly 1500 people in the city.

Yes, B&H has done plenty for the locals in it's area. It only hurts the camera store in my area, however. And it only pays taxes to NY state, so if you live in NY, support your local camera store. If you live elsewhere, support your local camera store. BTW, in my opinion, Amazon.com is the worst thing that ever happened to retail in America. They're putting small retailers in every field out of business all over the country. If you don't believe me, go ask a small retail owner.

mikebarger · Jan 27, 2010

I'd guess Walmart has done more damage to local retailers than Amazon will do in the next 10 years.

While we may want to order direct from the factory, after working in logistics for two large consumer manufacturers, they don't that type of business. Push out in large quantities to distributors, or the Walmart, Sam's, Costco's of the world. If it is less than a truckload (in some case multiple truckloads) no dice.

Just to much overhead involved in servicing those little orders.

Mike

Moopheus · Jan 27, 2010

There's a small shop nearby that I use for C-41 and occasionally buying film--their prices aren't actually too bad, but their in-store selection is limited, though they do stock pro films and some 120. Also paper. They even offer b&w processing. The guy who runs the shop is a film guy at heart, but of course demand is limited. Oddly, the most local store for me is a Calumet--it's only a couple of blocks away.

randyB · Jan 27, 2010

I buy most of my film from the Internet but I also buy from local (Nashville) shops on occasion. I don't mind paying the suggested retail for a few rolls but what galls me is when a small retailer (not in Nashville) marks the film up way past retail. When I asked why they were charging $6.00 for a 24 exp roll of Tmax 400 (suggested retail was about $3.99) their answer was "because the university students will pay it". I thought this was rather unfair. They closed their doors a few month later. It is difficult for a small retailer to compete with the big chain stores but when you get the reputation of overpricing your stock then customers will not shop there at all.

bob100684 · Jan 28, 2010

GeorgeDexter said:
A. Small stores have to mark film and accessories up 40-50% because they can't make any money selling cameras. (Camera markup averages about 10-12%, and even then they aren't as low as B&H and their ilk.)

Just as an example, and don't delete this because it involves a digital camera. I had been working at a fairly large chain of camera stores, our COST for a canon 40d at the time was about $20 more than B+H was selling them for.

nick mulder · Jan 28, 2010

Imagine your whole country was like this store ...

Welcome to New Zealand - always have a chuckle when other complain about film costs, at least double any price you pay to get anywhere near our costs.

So, yes - we end up sending all our money overseas and making it seem even more justified for the photography shops to stop supplying film. If you really want to buy local you ring Fuji HQ for Fuji and Kodaks DeathStar for Kodak.

railwayman3 · Jan 28, 2010

Without taking sides on the big versus small shop argument, I can't help but thinking that we are still spoilt-for-choice in the availability and choice of film.

My late Grandfather (himself a keen photographer) was married in 1941 and liked to tell the tale that, under wartime rationing, the professional photographer was allowed just one film per wedding (presumably a 120 12 exp.)! And, during and for some time after the war, as an amateur photographer he himself apparently could only get small supplies of ex-forces surplus film and paper of very variable quality. Still didn't stop him producing some great pics!

Bill Harrison · Jan 28, 2010

film /guitar strings

I'm a guitarmaker, not even a retail store. I can buy strings for 50% off plus further discount of 10% sometimes 20%, of the remaining 50% if I pay at the time of ordering. That's for as little as a doz. sets! The equiv. of a brick of film. So I don't believe the retail store gets as much as B&H in discount but I don't think that B&H's discount is as HUGE as everyone thinks.... They deal in such large volume, the discount they DO get makes a very BIG profit.... The retail photo stores just refuse to compete with the net and overcharges YOU to get even, and they are PISSED... The local shop here in Kingston, NY, is "MR Angry" when you ask for information... he knows your going to buy on the net... He sees film people as someone with one green eye, one brown eye and an unlisted phone number, hardly a market at all. I give him credit, he carries film, paper, developer, 35mm bulk supplies.... expensive, but there...

DLawson · Jan 28, 2010

mikebarger said:
I'd guess Walmart has done more damage to local retailers than Amazon will do in the next 10 years.

I was considering bring up the WalMart effect. The US (at least) is discount, big-box store oriented now. That's true on-line and off-line. That, combined with dwindling film usage, makes things very tough for any small business that wants to sell film.

You see that repeatedly on APUG even. Every "How much are you paying for $ThisFilm?" thread has someone post, "Freestyle has it for $lowerPrice."

And, while I am not fond of WalMart, I'm not meaning to pick on them here. They didn't start this. Kresge went national long before Walton did. This trend probably goes back to the first Sears catalog, if not earlier.

mikebarger · Jan 28, 2010

My point was... I don't think Amazon is as much of a player in any given market as some think. They do a lot of business but it is spread out over the country. Walmart has targeted small/medium sized communities and has had a hugh impact there.

Even at that, I agree it is a process that has been going on for some time, and yes I do spend money at Walmart.

Mike

r-brian · Jan 28, 2010

After finally read all the post I thought I'd give my two cents, put from a different perspective. Ten years ago, I worked in a camera store, a family owned business in the same location for 50 years. As a sales person, I made more commission on a $189 35mm P&S than I made on a $2000 Nikon F5, and the store made more profit on the P&S. But camera sales didn't pay the bills. It was the accessories; that's why they always try to sell you a filter or some film. The mark-up is 100-200-300%. That's just the way it is. And the manufacturers did help not situation. At the time, I could go to Costco and buy a Canon Rebel outfit cheaper than what Canon would sell it to the store. You can't compete with a price structure like that. Digital is even worse. There is less mark-up on digital equipment than there was on film equipment. And you don't have the add-ons and recurring film sales to keep the store in business.

And this is not just the camera industry, it's retail in general. I also work for Sears 20 years ago, selling TV's, VCR's and other large ticket items. The profit on the large items, including Maytag washers, dryers, refrigerators, etc., just barely covered the overhead costs for the section. The store profit was from clothes and such. The shirt that came in with a $40 price tag, immediately marked down to $20 cost the store $2. Yes, $2. Just ask someone from India or China what they can buy the same shirt for in India or China where it is made.

The next time you want to go and pick up a camera and hold it to see how it feels, or ask a question about how something works or why something isn't working, remember, there is a hidden cost involve. How many times have I spent 30 minutes showing someone a camera, or how the one works that they have, or just answering questions and then having the customer walk out without buying anything.

Jeff Kubach · Jan 28, 2010

I try to buy locally as much as possible, but sometimes I have to buy over the internet.

Jeff

jbridges · Jan 28, 2010

I won't go in my local store anymore. They are the pushers of the evil baby pictures and if anyone who works there has ever heard of Sally Mann or Kenna I would shave my head.

True Story: Friend of mine heard someone talking photography at a coffee shop and chatted them up. They said they were wedding photographers. My friend said he shoots a Hasselblad and there response was that they never heard of it and only stick to the quality equipment. Welcome to Little Rock.

Colin Corneau · Jan 28, 2010

You'll always have the hacks...that's never changed. Digital has made it easier for them, but no filter or plugin will ever trump artistry and true quality. The challenge will come in selling that artistry and conveying it to the population at large.
But then again, that's never changed, either.

mikebarger · Jan 28, 2010

Jbridges that's rich

Mike

JMC1969 · Jan 28, 2010

Bill Harrison said:
The retail photo stores just refuse to compete with the net and overcharges YOU to get even, and they are PISSED... .

Absolutely ridiculous statement! Go back to page 2 and read my previous postthere was a url link here which no longer exists)

I'm not sure if we are all talking about the same caliber of "Small/Local" stores/labs. We have 6 total employees down from 9, 2 are the married owners, 1 is their daughter and then the other 2 including me. None of us are here to make it harder for people to do what they love just because we are just down the road from where they live. We just want you to have a great experience with your art and pleasure by offering Quality where we can. In return, we get to continue our livelihood. I love coming to work when it is busy, I hate it when it is slow. Not because slow isn't bringing money in the door, but because I love what I do. If I don't have anything to do at work, I would rather be out shooting along with the rest of you.

rphenning · Jan 28, 2010

2 rolls of 160nc in 120 at my local shop cost me $23.00 and the manager of the entire chain was there. He asked me why I was still shooting film and tried to sell me a rebel on the spot. Im not going to support them.

JMC1969 · Jan 28, 2010

rphenning said:
2 rolls of 160nc in 120 at my local shop cost me $23.00 and the manager of the entire chain was there. He asked me why I was still shooting film and tried to sell me a rebel on the spot. Im not going to support them.

To me that is odd. I would make a pretty good guess that in the last 1½-2 years, overall film processing has dropped, but the amount of medium format has risen by 20%-30%. Without a doubt, Medium format is the bulk of all C-41 and 4x5 is on a steep rise in E6. If it weren't for the eye doctors still using trans film, I would be next to nothing in 35mm for E6. I find it a pleasure to talk to the young people that come in the store as they were born and raised on digital and with a small push, film is very intriguing to them. Most start with a Holga, but if that brings them back to talk, I can get them to thing about Glass. For the record, we don't sell camera equipment. I would like to, but the up front money is not there right now and I would stick to used equipment if we did.

Moose38 · Jan 28, 2010

But with higher prices may also mean fewer customers as well. It is a catch 22. It's like when i went cold turkey from my chewing. It wasn't because it was gross to do for me. It just came down to simple economic's. It was cost of a can chew. That helped me stop. I just wasn't willing to spend 6.00 bucks a can a day. If we turn this into a snobby thing. People will just walk a way. Don't get me wrong photography is not cheap. But if it get's any more exspensive. People may just walk away. I consider film to be true Photography. I see digital as imaging. There not the same at all. If we really care about the future of film photography. Then we better start making it somthing that future generations will do & enjoy like us. Because if we don't. It may not be there in our kids future. Folks the way film is going now it doesn't look good.

Film rape

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