Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

miha said:
C-41 is more colour correct than E-6. Orange mask has a lot to do with it.

MattKing said:
Because of the nature of the materials available to us (primarily the dyes, couplers and pigments involved), a system involving a negative film and a subsequent positive final result (print or transparency) has a greater capacity to render colours accurately than a system that produces a positive result directly.

The orange mask is an important part of such a negative - positive system. There are other approaches, but the orange mask is probably the most effective.

If you get rid of the mask, the colour isn't as good.

I'm going to qualify this and say I'm assuming you mean for Optical Printing... Not scanning, because my scanner NEVER scans C-41 accurately and it looks like crap, but my E-6 always looks just like the slide.

I know you guys want this place non-scanner talk but let's put it this way, when applying to college this year I had to convince the teachers to take extra time to teach me color printing because they have stopped teaching it, because the TEACHERS all say that scanning and then printing with an ink printer gives better and more detailed prints than doing it optically, the scanners can pick up better detail than printing color in the darkroom.

Also "no one is doing it" so it's not a useful skill to teach new students.

They don't even have them process the color film anymore they have them send it out to the lab...

So although this is not exactly on topic I'll bring it all together to be on topic that one of Ferrania's things to focus on is that their film SCAN well, because most will be scanning their film going forward into the future.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Damn. In just five succinct words you nailed the entire worldwide issue.

Ken

Pretty sure if kodak fails, and Fuji fails, and forbid it FILM Ferrania fails...

There WILL be a color ilford

miha · Aug 18, 2014

If your C-41 looks like crap, something is wrong with your workflow, sorry. I don't scan myself as I can't afford a Flextight, flatbed doesn't give optimum results. I get my C-41 & E-6 scanned on a Durst Sigma professionally .

Sorry for OT.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

miha said:
If your C-41 looks like crap, something is wrong with your workflow, sorry. I don't scan myself as I can't afford a Flextight, flatbed doesn't give optimum results. I get my C-41 & E-6 scanned on a Durst Sigma professionally .

Sorry for OT.

Have a V-750 yes I'm aware it's not the best and not color calibrated.

Most C-41 I've seen I don't like when compared to E-6 unless scanned on a Flextight/Drum so for REALISTIC purposes E-6 scans better for normal people, and C-41 scans better for RICH people

Poisson Du Jour · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
[...]TEACHERS all say that scanning and then printing with an ink printer gives better and more detailed prints than doing it optically, the scanners can pick up better detail than printing color in the darkroom.

[...]

Well the teachers are talking bullshit. Optical printing vs scan to print is very, very subjective and the results have their own flavours, their own supports and detractors each and other alike; I doubt teachers know the nuances of one or both. I like both methods, but industry has "moved on" and now uses the scan to print method — no beef about that, just what they are printing to that niggles me. Proofing to inkjet as a representation of a final print on some other media is ludicrous. I've known teachers to support the full-inkjet Monty too. The correct and least error-prone method is to scan and print to wet RA4 analogue ("digital to analogue") — the same thing you would do in a darkroom! Unless you have high-end machinery and custom media, inkjet proofing is very imprecise, requires an entirely different approach and profiles very differently compared to RA-4 (gamut-neutral).. Teachers really do need to 'go back to school' and come to grips with both analogue and digital methods of printing, including darkroom and digital or a mix of both (hybridised). Just belting the class with "everything is digital now!" is so wrong on many, many counts.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Poisson Du Jour said:
Well the teachers are talking bullshit. Optical printing vs scan to print is very, very subjective and the results have their own flavours, their own supports and detractors each and other alike; I doubt teachers know the nuances of one or both. I like both methods, but industry has "moved on" and now uses the scan to print method no beef about that, just what they are printing to that niggles me. Proofing to inkjet is a representation of a final print on some other media is ludicrous. I've known teachers to support the full-inkjet Monty too. The correct method is to scan and print to wet RA4 analogue ("digital to analogue") the same thing you would do in a darkroom! Unless you have high-end machinery and custom media, inkjet proofing is very imprecise, requires an entirely different approach and profiles very differently compared to RA-4 (gamut-neutral). Teachers really do need to 'go back to school' and come to grips with both analogue and digital methods of printing, including darkroom and digital or a mix of both (hybridised). Just belting the class with "everything is digital now!" is so wrong on many, many counts.

They aren't saying everything is digital, they said (and showed me examples) of scanned images that were ink jetted vs optically printed, and the ink jets were finer and sharper looking. Hey my job is to smile and nod and ask if I can still be taught color optical printing.

They also don't have the money for a lambda/lightjet type machine... Or they might teach that method.

I'm just saying in the new paradigm FILM Ferrania needs to make sure all their film scans well.

Peter de Groot · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
They aren't saying everything is digital, they said (and showed me examples) of scanned images that were ink jetted vs optically printed, and the ink jets were finer and sharper looking. Hey my job is to smile and nod and ask if I can still be taught color optical printing.

They also don't have the money for a lambda/lightjet type machine... Or they might teach that method.

I'm just saying in the new paradigm FILM Ferrania needs to make sure all their film scans well.

I think that would be smart for Ferrania to do. Make sure it scans well and it prints wel in the darkroom.

Xmas · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
What are you talking about "color errors"?

Ok you may not see them some people don't.
Use a non masked film or slide if you want.
A customer might complain is the only problem.
Some people are very sensitive to any variation.
If you are taking fashion shots a designer may want two shades exactly as the clothing material and even with a grey card it may be impossible, note girls may be more sensitive to hue...
You may have to read up how a tri pack film represents colour, eg Kodak had planned on a two colour film before kodachrome designers perfected the tri pack.
Note Id not tease about something important.
There are some people who like the colour from one digital sensor type over another.
You need a set of oils and canvas and a weekend...

Xmas · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Pretty sure if kodak fails, and Fuji fails, and forbid it FILM Ferrania fails...

There WILL be a color ilford

They have done colour slide and colour neg within living memory - they stopped...

But people make marketing decisions using Excel spreadsheets. Not on caps lock sticking on APUG.

XP2+ is a c41 film without a mask and a coupled grey dye when the c41 labs fold further and its sales are eroded cause it is home process and CD4 is lab 2kg jar or Dwanes only.

Do they still make it or not? I've home processed colour C41 and E6. It might go special order only? The resellers buy Ilford film not us.

Impossible has a niche it does not need infra structure like a lab in every pharmacy. You can get a used plastic camera for less than a film pack.

It was the 20 min C41 labs that killed polariod film and E6.

Ilford may not see more profit in colour to justify a new film type long term. It is like can we have xxx film in large format?

AgX · Aug 18, 2014

miha said:
C-41 is more colour correct than E-6. Orange mask has a lot to do with it.

Not quite true. Or: half of the Story

E-6 films were designed for projection and C-41 for making prints. With the latter thus doubling a saturation-error due to dye malabsorbtion. Thus in twice the need for error compensation.

Yes, in times of scanning masked film can even take greater advantage from this.

Xmas · Aug 18, 2014

Colour theory is quite complex film, printing etc.

Lotta colleges will leave you myriads of references and books to read, you may as well start now.

If you are selling photos slides on a light table is easy apart from the printers will have your originals.

Prints the customer may have the costume to hand to do a comparison and take both outside into Sun.

When they do that you have problems.

It is like the body shop may need to respray your fender several times to get a match with the rest of auto, and after a month in the sun it shows different.

Colour in practice is difficult.

Today a customer will be used to chimping a jpeg over shoulder or reviewing off the D sensor on a hybrid Arri.

miha · Aug 18, 2014

AgX said:
Not quite true. Or: half of the Story

E-6 films were designed for projection and C-41 for making prints. With the latter thus doubling a saturation-error due to dye malabsorbtion. Thus in twice the need for error compensation.

Yes, in times of scanning masked film can even take greater advantage from this.

Which part? If the second, then there is only one colour C-41 available to the masses that is also unmasked and can be compared to other regular masked C-41 films on the market: http://www.shutterbug.com/content/rollei’s-scanfilm-unique-“mask-less”-color-neg-film The colours are far from correct.

Xmas · Aug 18, 2014

miha said:
The colours are far from correct.

Correct but the masked colours will normally be more correct cause the mask cancels a part of the error mechanism.

If you scan slide and masked C41 the mask should leave you a better RAW.

If your customer is a girl expect her to see more of the error than you can.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Xmas said:
Correct but the masked colours will normally be more correct cause the mask cancels a part of the error mechanism.

If you scan slide and masked C41 the mask should leave you a better RAW.

If your customer is a girl expect her to see more of the error than you can.

What does being a girl have to do with anything?

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
What does being a girl have to do with anything?

It's just anatomy. On average, women have better vision and more acute hearing... or is that more cute earrings?

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Xmas said:
Ok you may not see them some people don't.
Use a non masked film or slide if you want.
A customer might complain is the only problem.
Some people are very sensitive to any variation.
If you are taking fashion shots a designer may want two shades exactly as the clothing material and even with a grey card it may be impossible, note girls may be more sensitive to hue...
You may have to read up how a tri pack film represents colour, eg Kodak had planned on a two colour film before kodachrome designers perfected the tri pack.
Note Id not tease about something important.
There are some people who like the colour from one digital sensor type over another.
You need a set of oils and canvas and a weekend...

I see what you mean now, but no one is shooting any of the work you're talking about on film anymore... That said there was one guy on the large-format for him who specifically was looking to test different films for the very specific project involving would tonality, he came to discover that the best film for him to shoot was actually fujichrome 64T ... He was shooting 11x14 and preferred that as he said it gave the best most accurate colors for the wood furniture he was shooting over all other color films available in 11x14 (yes it was even expired film (well kept) and still gave the best results, so your results may vary...).

To me, C-41 color is HORRIBLY inaccurate and blotchy, this is because it scans poorly on my V-750 and others have reported the same, the shadow areas in the black aren't BLACK they are a mix of green and red and blue blotchy spots. That's why I like E-6 because the black is pure black.

So to me C-41 isn't color accurate because of these random "color pixels" that appear in the shadow areas... Heck they are even in non shadow areas just not as obvious.

They look like "dead pixels" from a digital camera. It's ugly. So if they do make a C-41 I hope it doesn't have that either.

wblynch · Aug 18, 2014

I hate that this thread has gone off track from the wonderful news that Ferrania is about to produce new color films.

I have one last comment about the orange mask: Commercial scanners deal with it by placing a blue filter over the entire frame, then correct in software. No mask, no filter. Easy.

All color negative prints, optical or electronic, require color correction so maskless negative film would only need a slightly different correction.

And in the past all commercial and publication shoots were expected to be delivered on transparency. Transparency color must be pretty good.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Thanks wblynch

Also, FILM Ferrania followed me on twitter the other day whoot!

Xmas · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I see what you mean now, but no one is shooting any of the work you're talking about on film anymore... That said there was one guy on the large-format for him who specifically was looking to test different films for the very specific project involving would tonality, he came to discover that the best film for him to shoot was actually fujichrome 64T ... He was shooting 11x14 and preferred that as he said it gave the best most accurate colors for the wood furniture he was shooting over all other color films available in 11x14 (yes it was even expired film (well kept) and still gave the best results, so your results may vary...).

To me, C-41 color is HORRIBLY inaccurate and blotchy, this is because it scans poorly on my V-750 and others have reported the same, the shadow areas in the black aren't BLACK they are a mix of green and red and blue blotchy spots. That's why I like E-6 because the black is pure black.

So to me C-41 isn't color accurate because of these random "color pixels" that appear in the shadow areas... Heck they are even in non shadow areas just not as obvious.

They look like "dead pixels" from a digital camera. It's ugly. So if they do make a C-41 I hope it doesn't have that either.

Hi

But if you do photos for $, the customer is correct. See last para.

Girls can see colour in a different domain from me some of them can recall over several days a colour balance that I can see just side by side but they don't need the side by side.

Not all of us have flat bed scanners. I use a dedicated 35mm one for proofing that is quick a few seconds about 40USD.

The 'grain' you get in C 41 film some people compare with digital noise, try a stop extra exposure with static shots, with XP2+ that will clear most shadow noise. Should be the same in colour. You would need to experiment.

Xp2+ is best at 50 ISO but will still 'work' at 1600... last if you only want an image.

My hot news chum asked me a sequence of film/RC questions half way through I say but you are using a DSLR.

Yes he says but 'the only way I get payed work is with a film portfolio to show I have not just borrowed a DSLR and might not have a memory card in it'.

A film slide of a model with a grey card over breeding bits in portfolio case might get you a job...

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

Xmas said:
Hi

But if you do photos for $, the customer is correct. See last para.

Girls can see colour in a different domain from me some of them can recall over several days a colour balance that I can see just side by side but they don't need the side by side.

Not all of us have flat bed scanners. I use a dedicated 35mm one for proofing that is quick a few seconds about 40USD.

The 'grain' you get in C 41 film some people compare with digital noise, try a stop extra exposure with static shots, with XP2+ that will clear most shadow noise. Should be the same in colour. You would need to experiment.

Xp2+ is best at 50 ISO but will still 'work' at 1600... last if you only want an image.

My hot news chum asked me a sequence of film/RC questions half way through I say but you are using a DSLR.

Yes he says but 'the only way I get payed work is with a film portfolio to show I have not just borrowed a DSLR and might not have a memory card in it'.

A film slide of a model with a grey card over breeding bits in portfolio case might get you a job...

I'll PM you this is getting way OT

Truzi · Aug 18, 2014

I completed the survey, but unfortunately the text fields do not seem to have stored all the text I typed (when looking at my "profile" afterwards).

cmacd123 · Aug 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Then why can Rollie make a non-orange base film?

It is made for Photography from Airplanes where exact colour rendition is not a concern.

StoneNYC · Aug 18, 2014

cmacd123 said:
It is made for Photography from Airplanes where exact colour rendition is not a concern.

IMO no films are really "exact" in color, they all have a color cast / tone to them that is distinct. *shrug*

Nzoomed · Aug 19, 2014

StoneNYC said:
IMO no films are really "exact" in color, they all have a color cast / tone to them that is distinct. *shrug*

Not even digital is accurate, but yse all films are different, and none are 100% accurate, however what i like about film, (reversal film in particular) is that its own traits add to the image and id rather have the colours the film produces than what the real image actually should appear.

railwayman3 · Aug 19, 2014

Nzoomed said:
Not even digital is accurate, but yse all films are different, and none are 100% accurate, however what i like about film, (reversal film in particular) is that its own traits add to the image and id rather have the colours the film produces than what the real image actually should appear.

All very true....I liked the look of Kodachrome, yet, scientifically, there were recognised deficiencies in the dye sets. To me the colours looked accurate and as I remembered scenes, others liked a brighter look to their pictures (one friend said that Kodachrome was "too accurate"!). All down to preferences, maybe individual colour vision or perception also plays a part. Just sad that we no longer have the variety of films to suit everyone's choices,

Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

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