Film Ferrania - Developments from October 2023 onward

[flavio81]

Unfortunately right at the bottom of the page it says "This product is produced using Eastman 5294 color reversal film"

Also known as ... Ektachrome 100D!

 

[thinkbrown]

Also known as ... Ektachrome 100D!

Yup. All the non-harman Ilford stuff is just rebranded orwo or Kodak afaik.

 

[brbo]

Why do you find it so hard to believe? Only because you never saw a box that said "Ferrania "?

The Kodak - Fuji monopoly/duopoly case was widely debated throughout late 80s and 90s (just one example). Never ever did Ferrania (nor Ferrania/3M) enter the debate. You can guess why.

You are, of course, encouraged to come up with any half credible link to support that Ferrania was at anytime anywhere near to being largest C-41 manufacturer in the world. Sorry, but that claim has all the "Pentax 17 camera accounting for 20% of entire Ricoh's revenue" vibe. "Ferrania being world's largest C-41 manufacturer" statement probably started as something like "Ferrania was largest white-label colour film manufacturer in Europe" and then morphed into this. Frankly, it's quite absurd that this is taken seriously on Photrio.

 

[cmacd123]

One needs to remember that 3M was a serious company, for example in magnetic tape production they were the absolute best in manufacturing quality. When they bought Ferrania they probably would have ensured to create a quality product, even if it was for a low cost tier.

And According to one dealer in used reel to reel tape, 3M did make Scotch" audio tape at Ferrania for the European market, and in a joint venture with sumoto for the Japan Market.

Scotch Italy 203 Dynarange Reel Tape, LP, 7″ Reel, 1800 ft, Plastic Box

reeltoreelwarehouse.com

 

[cmacd123]

I don't think we should underestimate just how much film Ferrania was cranking out in those days. They were supplying a lot of those huge labs across Europe and certainly for a time they were supplying Wal-Mart in the USA too. Goodness knows who else....I mean, do we know who made Kirkland film for Costco?

Kmart and Sears (before they combined) also both sold 3M colour film in North america. 3M also was a big conumer mass market photofinisher, and they would print your memories on un-named ferrania paper.

3M also sold microfilm, and dry silver print paper for microfilm. the dry silver paper I used was marked USA, but the film was likly sourced at 3M italy.

 

[qqphot]

Unfortunately right at the bottom of the page it says "This product is produced using Eastman 5294 color reversal film"

This seems bizarre to me and I can't think of why they'd do this. Just to try to stake out some territory in the color film market, such as it is?

 

[aw614]

I do believe "target" branded film was also 3m/ferrania. I shot a few expired rolls at the beginning of the pandemic that I picked up on offerup

 

[flavio81]

The Kodak - Fuji monopoly/duopoly case was widely debated throughout late 80s and 90s (just one example). Never ever did Ferrania (nor Ferrania/3M) enter the debate. You can guess why.

What kind of argument is that?

You present a paper that compares Kodak versus Fuji. Does this mean those were the only two manufacturers of color film? No.

"Ferrania being world's largest C-41 manufacturer" statement probably started as something like "Ferrania was largest white-label colour film manufacturer in Europe"

I guess Wal-mart is located in Europe, then? /s

It seems you never saw off-label film, then. There was a ton of off-label film, everywhere.

 

[Agulliver]

The Kodak - Fuji monopoly/duopoly case was widely debated throughout late 80s and 90s (just one example). Never ever did Ferrania (nor Ferrania/3M) enter the debate. You can guess why.

You are, of course, encouraged to come up with any half credible link to support that Ferrania was at anytime anywhere near to being largest C-41 manufacturer in the world. Sorry, but that claim has all the "Pentax 17 camera accounting for 20% of entire Ricoh's revenue" vibe. "Ferrania being world's largest C-41 manufacturer" statement probably started as something like "Ferrania was largest white-label colour film manufacturer in Europe" and then morphed into this. Frankly, it's quite absurd that this is taken seriously on Photrio.

Whatever, dude.

 

[brbo]

What kind of argument is that?

You present a paper that compares Kodak versus Fuji. Does this mean those were the only two manufacturers of color film? No.

I never said that there were only two manufacturers of colour film. I just said that Ferrania/3M was nowhere near the market share of Kodak or later Kodak/Fuji duopoly.

I'm all for a bit of "lateral thinking" that is so popular in our timeline, but lets try to keep it real here. When 3M (and everybody else for that matter) says (scroll to page 211) that they never made a dent into Kodak/Fuji dominated market it really is time to put that claim to bed. Ferrania was tiny in comparison to Kodak when 3M acquired it (for $55m when Kodak's yearly revenue in that time was north of $1B) and couldn't grow it to compete with Kodak and later Fuji. That doesn't mean they haven't produced a ton of film, it's just that others put out way more.

I guess Wal-mart is located in Europe, then? /s

It seems you never saw off-label film, then. There was a ton of off-label film, everywhere.

Whatever, dude.

Maybe you could tone down your ad hominem responses and provide some serious arguments instead? I'm guilty of a couple of responses made in jest not realising that people were serious when floating this idea, but can we pick up the level here? Can you provide any reference to any kind of data that would suggest that Ferrania was anywhere close to being largest manufacturer of colour film?

 

[foc]

This image was assembled by the FILM Ferrania team in an attempt to display the hundreds upon hundreds of brands of film produced during the 3M era.

https://thedarkroom.com/film-brand/...LnBaDpP-kO0zArRRESjvNTYUlLxHjdoeJSQ1S-KZGZaw7

 

[ChrisGalway]

The history is fascinating but the big question is: does Ferrania have any capability to make a colour film ... negative and/or positive ... today or in the near future? I mean not only the know-how, but also the people and machinery.

That they made a bundle of film in the past is not in dispute!

 

[Agulliver]

Maybe you could tone down your ad hominem responses and provide some serious arguments instead? I'm guilty of a couple of responses made in jest not realising that people were serious when floating this idea, but can we pick up the level here? Can you provide any reference to any kind of data that would suggest that Ferrania was anywhere close to being largest manufacturer of colour film?

Pot, kettle, black. I do not feel your posts are being made in good faith, but I have sufficient restraint not to "call the moderator".

There's plenty of information about Ferrania's history provided by myself and other posters.

 

[Agulliver]

The history is fascinating but the big question is: does Ferrania have any capability to make a colour film ... negative and/or positive ... today or in the near future? I mean not only the know-how, but also the people and machinery.

That they made a bundle of film in the past is not in dispute!

Well, at least one poster doesn't seem to believe it.

I think the point of bringing up their past is that unlike Harman, Ferrania has manufactured colour film...indeed in the not so distant past. There may be some expertise still available to call upon in addition to a coating machine capable of achieving colour coating and lots of data in the form of physical and electronic paperwork regarding their past product.s This *may* make it feasible for them to resume production of colour film faster than Harman can perfect Phoenix.

 

[brbo]

Well, at least one poster doesn't seem to believe it.

This one poster donated to Ferrania Kickstarter (yes, DONATED - never claimed any P30 or used discount from Ferrania when I could and paid for all my P30 rolls in full when it was available at their store). And good luck finding any posts from me bashing Ferrania or questioning the way they went about setting their new operation. You'll be as successful as finding evidence Ferrania was worlds largest manufacturer of C-41.

So, you see, it is possible to support Ferrania without making embarrassingly inaccurate statements.

 

[flavio81]

I never said that there were only two manufacturers of colour film. I just said that Ferrania/3M was nowhere near the market share of Kodak or later Kodak/Fuji duopoly.

I'm all for a bit of "lateral thinking" that is so popular in our timeline, but lets try to keep it real here. When 3M (and everybody else for that matter) says (scroll to page 211) that they never made a dent into Kodak/Fuji dominated market it really is time to put that claim to bed.

You need perhaps to reconsider the way you read things out there in texts or the internet.

What the page says is :

"Ultimately, 3M’s photographic business became
the largest supplier of private label film to customers
around the world, but the consumer business stayed
with Kodak and the newest up-and-comer, Fuji. "

Maybe you should take in mind that "market share" is specific to a market. What this means is that when they tried to sell their film under their own label, they couldn't get the market share of Kodak or Fuji, nothing more, nothing less.

Private label is a different market, and they did dominate that market. That is a huge market too.

Ferrania was tiny in comparison to Kodak when 3M acquired it (for $55m when Kodak's yearly revenue in that time was north of $1B)

Ferrania enlarged their operations after the 3M purchase, not before.

 

[flavio81]

Maybe you could tone down your ad hominem responses and provide some serious arguments instead?

I think myself and other people also demand more serious argumenting from your side.

Pot, kettle, black. I do not feel your posts are being made in good faith, but I have sufficient restraint not to "call the moderator".

There's plenty of information about Ferrania's history provided by myself and other posters.

Yes, when FILM Ferrania (the attempted resurrection) started, there were some figures about the scale of the former Ferrania operation, and it was a very big scale.

 

[brbo]

I think myself and other people also demand more serious argumenting from your side.

Yet you have not provided any evidence of Ferrania being the largest producer of C-41. And it will remain like that.

Maybe you should take in mind that "market share" is specific to a market. What this means is that when they tried to sell their film under their own label, they couldn't get the market share of Kodak or Fuji, nothing more, nothing less.

Private label is a different market, and they did dominate that market. That is a huge market too.

True. It was a big market. But, unfortunately, a magnitude smaller than what Kodak + Fuji represented.

Ferrania enlarged their operations after the 3M purchase, not before.

True. Still, Imation (with Ferrania only being one of the 7 companies that formed it) had a revenue of about $2B when it was spun-off out of 3M. That was less than Kodak's revenue of two months at the time. Btw, read the free excerpt from "Billion Dollar Turnaround: The 3m Spinoff That Became Imation" where the CEO writes that Photo segment of Imation (Ferrania) had already small market share in a shrinking market. Ferrania was being pushed aside to supplying much smaller, lower margin private label market and even there being killed by Kodak and Fuji facing it off in a price war. Ferrania was nowhere near the size of Kodak and Fuji. Syntactically it might be a small difference between "largest private label supplier of colour film" and "largest supplier of colour film" but semantically the difference is huge. It's an easy mistake to make when reading about Ferrania or just a slight glitch in one's memory (I failed to acknowledge that possibility of that with my "Oh, dear..." comment, and you can consider me being a d**khead for that), but lets all engage our brains now.

 

[miha]

(just one example).

Treasure alert! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Agulliver]

The poster who has been rather aggressive can perhaps feel a sense of accomplishment that in nearly 40 years online, they are only the third I have hit the "ignore" button for.

Back to Ferrania. Analogue Wonderland in the UK have P30 and Orto in stock in 35mm. The image they use is the new box, though I have not ordered any. I might do so in January for use on a trip in February. Has anyone bought any very recently, and are they able to confirm if it's "made in Italy"?

 

[flavio81]

Yet you have not provided any evidence of Ferrania being the largest producer of C-41. And it will remain like that.

Maybe you can improve your online interactions by giving further effort to understand what is being discussed:

You see, the "debate" started here:

Ferrania have a bit of an advantage in that they were once possibly the world's largest manufacturer of C41 film and made an E6 film. They haven't done so since 2009 but the ability and knowledge was there. But it isn't turning a key and restarting production.

So the argument was that
they were (past)
possibly (that means, not claiming certainly but there was the possiblity)
once (at SOME point in time, for at least one occasion)
the world's largest manufacturer of C41 film.

Moreover, this argument was presented to support the key point: "THE ABILITY AND KNOWLEDGE WAS THERE".

All through the interaction, you have made the error of simplifying the argument, which is similar to going for a strawman argument. Not good.

Other people immediately understood Agulliver's enunciate correctly:

FWIW, it may very well be the case that during some year or years 3M/GAF/Ferrania made more rolls of colour film in the most common amateur formats than the Kodaks or Fuji or ???

So, brbo, from the point Agulliver stated his enunciate, you distorted the original argument.

Now, back on track, the Ferrania factory had the capacity to be able to pump out almost 360 million rolls of film per year. To have an idea of the current state of affairs in terms of film color sold worldwide, a report states that in the year 2023, 11 (eleven) million color films were sold globally.

You can bet that on the film drought years (circa 2007-2017), the amount of color films sold was even less.

In those years, Kodak had serious problems trying to downscale, since they had many factories that were designed to be cost-efficient when operated at scale. They had to close many film production faciliites around the world, leaving only basically Rochester.

So, there is a big chance than from the early 2000s until ferrania's closure in 2009,

a. global demand for color film was way lower than 360 million a year, thus Ferrania could produce all the world's color film if they had the chance to,

and

b. kodak sales diminished up to the point the off-brand film market (and disposable cameras film market), dominated by Ferrania, equals or even has bigger sales than the regular consumer film market (dominated by Kodak & friends)

Thus,

There is a possiblity that at some point in time Ferrania made more C41 film than Kodak or whoever was traditionally dominating that product type. Now, probably at that point in time, even with this edge, this was not profitable at all for Ferrania (for the same reasons Kodak had to close factories: too small scale for their operations) and thus they had to close operations.

 

[MattKing]

Moderator hat on:
Give it a rest!
Hat off.
All the historic sales and production data was proprietary and compartmentalized, so no one really knows how big the respective boat loads of film really were. They all were really big though.
And all except Fuji went bankrupt eventually anyways.

 

[flavio81]

And all except Fuji went bankrupt eventually anyways.

I think this is the most important point!!

Question, did Ilford go bankrupt too?

 

[MattKing]

I think this is the most important point!!

Question, did Ilford go bankrupt too?

Insolvent, and the Black and White related assets were purchased from the receiver by an employee group that incorporated Harman Technology Ltd. to realize on those assets, including the license to use the Ilford name for Black and White related products.
Harman also received the rights to the lease of the property in Mobberly that manufactures Ilford (B&W) and Kentmere and Harman branded products.
The original Ciba-Geigy owned Ilford is still sort of around - it is from that entity that the Ilfocolor brand seen in Australia arises. That entity probably still owns the Ilford trademark that Harman licenses.

 

[fs999]

The original Ciba-Geigy owned Ilford is still sort of around

In 2015, ADOX took over the coating machine from Ilford Imaging Switzerland, which was used for research of many products, including inkjet materials and the legendary Cibachrome. The machine is located in Marly, Switzerland, and occupies three floors. The factory was built around the coating machine, with many labs and research spaces.
Now turned into ADOX Switzerland, the company is actively researching and developing products. The Snap-On filters and the Captura dust-free powder technology are one of the many Swiss projects.

Adox site