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- Feb 18, 2009
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- Med. Format RF
So, I need to thank Steve for the paper.
In the paper he sent me the Kodak researchers used this "s" equation:
y = f + c* F(x+h)
where if you can get a computer to do a least squares fit of that s-shaped curved to your data you can just read off the contrast and speed as follows:
f = fog
c = contrast
h = speed
F( ) = the relationship y = F(x) where y = 1/ (1+ e^-x)
Actually, I don't think that this is what these authors were really doing. They discuss the function y = 1/ (1+ e^-x) at the beginning of the paper as an example of a function that looks like a film curve, but that actually doesn't work so well (more about this function, below). It is not the same as their F(x), which represents a generic function that can be used to described a family of curves. In practice, they suggest using for F(x) real, m
IC and others;
Did you read my anecdote about Cape Canaveral? Have you heard of the phrase "you press the button and we do the rest"?
You labor at finding the best speed, but the speed and development conditions for Fuji, Kodak and Ilford films are posted on their web sites and in many cases, on the box.
Doing all of this experimentation is nice, but it does not produce better pictures. What is needed is development of the eye and the mind in the sense of art to get good pictures. Even a bad tone scale can yield a prize winner if it is the right picture.
We are losing that sense here. Actually, math is great after the fact but often not before the fact when you are a photographer. The reverse is true when you are a photo engineer BTW. So, all of this work keeps you from taking pictures.
Go take pictures and experiment that way!
PE
I tried all the equations recommended in this thread but none work a swell as the one I proposed in post #39
I tried all the equations recommended in this thread but none work a swell as the one I proposed in post #39. I'm sticking to it, because it works fine for film and paper.
I would agree that which you have posted (or some others that Delta Graph can provide) can yield very low R value and thus have a very nice fit. However, getting speed and contrast data from that resulting equation is going to be the hard part (for me).y=(a0+a1*x+a2*x^2)/(b0+b1*x+b2*x^2+b3*x^3)
It returned the following curve for Tmax-400 data for a 16min development at 20C.
y=(2.356E+0-1.641E+0*x+2.908E-1*x^2)/(9.844E-1-1.894E-1*x-1.660E-1*x^2+5.433E-2*x^3)
R^2 = 9.998E-1
... After 100 years of refinement the best advice is still Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights and keep as much of the image as possible on the straight portion of the HD curve. It is in printing that the shape of the HD curve becomes important. ...
I don't like the patching of two curves much ...
I happen to have 6 rolls of 35mm film. There are 3 different types of B&W film; 3 are for myself and 3 are to give you at our next APUG gathering. But I forgot what they are....we both need to expose them develop them based on any info we can gather from the film
If I had three apples at the beginning of this experiment and Paul gave me 2 oranges while I was in a boat with a goat, a cabbage and a fox, rowing upstream at 3 miles an hour in a 10 knot headwind while firing a gun with a 10 lb cannonball ...
Sheeeet - just expose at 100 and soup in D-76 for 7 1/2 minutes [ob smiley].
I agree: it has a certain lack of aesthetics. But just about all real world fitting is done by splicing multiple curves together. Most physical phenomena go through changes in behavior and state over the range of interest: One certainly wouldn't use the same curve to represent the properties of ice, water and steam but they are all joined in a triple-point phase diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram. In film, the physics that give rise to the toe are different than those responsible for the shoulder - there is no equation that can represent them both. The presence of wild perturbations outside of the modeled data range is an indication of just how "unhappy" a polynomial is at being forced into the shape of an HD curve. If you really want to annoy a polynomial fit it to e^-x.
High order simple polynomials, though fascinating, are not a good choice for modeling a physical process and are rarely found. Conversely, infinite series of polynomials of sines and cosines are very common - the Fourier series being the most common - but this has it's own problem with unavoidable artifacts - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon The sines and cosines of the Fourier series being themselves computed with infinite series of polynomials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_series. What goes around comes around.
I swore I would stay out of this thread ...
. . . After 100 years of refinement the best advice is still ‘Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights’ and keep as much of the image as possible on the straight portion of the HD curve. It is in printing that the shape of the HD curve becomes important. . .
I have tried to read this whole thread, only to prove that the subject matter is way over my head.
I'm sorry if I'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, but does all this exercise really make your pictures better? Or is it an exercise in scientific curiosity? Or perhaps both?
If I took my photography to such scientific heights I think my head would explode. So I'm curious what drives the urge to go there.
The goal seems to be to match negative to paper, if I understand it correctly...
I have tried to read this whole thread, only to prove that the subject matter is way over my head.
I think there are a number of 'sub threads in here' but the main questions to be answered are straight forward :
1) How much exposure?
2) How much development?
You can:
1) guess
2) use someone elses data
3) test
For me, I use a combination of all the above. I guess, based on someone else's data (big development chart or MFG info) and once I'm happy with the negatives and prints I test. The results of the test are used to compare to a new 'unknown' film. The goal is to speed up the years of trial and error.
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