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Exposure time for step wedge?

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First, I have to admit, I haven't read the book, so there's probably something I'm missing, and I'm also not questioning whether the technique works on at least some levels, but the math isn't coming out right for me (not that I'm great at math).

Five stops over the meter reading would equal 8 * 2^5 = 256. The value of 8 comes from the constant P which is the midtone illuminance without factoring the shutter. For a film with a speed of 125, the midtone exposure will be 8 / 125 or 0.064 mcs. Five stops from that we get 2.048 mcs (256 / 125 = 2.048). With the step tablet density of 2.71, the light transmitted through that density point would be:

1 / 10^2.71 * 2.048 = 0.0040 mcs

That would produce a speed of .8 / 0.0040 = 200.

For a 125 speed film, that exposure should be 0.0064 mcs. There's a 0.2 log or 2/3 stop difference between the two. Based on that, the step with the density of 2.5 would more appropriately be the aim.
 

Chuck_P

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1 / 10^2.71 * 2.048 = 0.0040 mcs

That would produce a speed of .8 / 0.0040 = 200.

I'm sorry, nothing that I do involves meter-candle seconds as it is not necessary, and the "P" constant you mention factors nowhere in my process and the film testing technique that I have learned; not saying your wrong, only that it means nothing to me in terms of my own testing. I'm not concerned with a mid-tone exposure when testing for personal film speed; it has no relevance, IMO.
 
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The fault is mine for not being more clear. You mentioned that you meter the subject and open up five stops. I was simply supplying the exposure values for that and they happen to be in meter candle seconds. To obtain film speed from a step tablet, you need to know the illuminance and the step tablet density in order to calculate the value of H or exposure that hits the film and creates the desired density. My calculations showed that for the necessary exposure to produce a given film speed at the 2.70 density point on the step tablet, the technique you indicated would fall 2/3 stop short.

I was assuming you were using the camera to act as a source for a known exposure value. In other words, using the camera as a sensitometer. With a sensitometer, you use known values of illuminance, then figure out the transmitted light. This is necessary so when you find the speed point you can calculate the speed (0.8/Hm). Hm is the actual exposure at that point and is measured in meter candle seconds. I thought P was important because you mentioned your metering of the subject and that is P. It's all exposure theory stuff.

There is one thing that I'm not completely clear on is the meaning when you say, "Step 19 lands right at Zone I." Are you saying that Step 19 is the aim for Zone I like there's some intrinsic value to it or that in your test the film produced a density of 0.10 over fb+f at step 19. If it's the latter, then my mistake. If it is the latter, how does the method determine the EI after you've determined the speed point?
 
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Chuck_P

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Step 19 is not an aim for Zone I; it simply happens to be where that step is plotted. For the last post I made, it would be that the film produced a "net" negative density of 0.11 at step 19 of the tablet. That particular step of the tablet has a calibrated density of 2.71 and the film density at step 19 is then plotted against it. The calibrated step density is a constant and the film density at each step is the variable.

I apologize to the OP as it seems we have hi-jacked his thread, perhaps, if needed, we should start a new thread or go to pm's.
 

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Normally, step wedges are designed to go from 0+base - 3.0+base in density range. They go in 0.1, 0.15, or 0.3 Log E steps. There are charts that go to 6.0 in density as well for special work.

Real step wedges are cast carbon, as silver wedges all have some sort of color and therefore distort speed as a function of wavelength. You could never afford a cast carbon wedge in .15 log E increments to 6.0 density.

PE
 
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The method described by CPorter doesn't seem to have any advantages in exposure determination over using an enlarger to expose the step tablet, plus there are the potential disadvantages using a camera. There is a fairly large equation that determines light loss in a camera. It includes such factors as:

Camera Flare
Vignetting factor
Luminance distribution factor
Angle of image point from axis of lens

Anyone who looks at the ground glass of a 4x5 knows that the center of the lens is brighter than the edges. It seems to me like this might cause a problem.
 

sanking

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What is "cast carbon"?

Sandy King



Real step wedges are cast carbon, as silver wedges all have some sort of color and therefore distort speed as a function of wavelength. You could never afford a cast carbon wedge in .15 log E increments to 6.0 density.

PE
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Nicholas Lindan

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For example, the VIII for diffuser is between 1.25 - 1.35

There is a bit of a problem in the understanding of the Zone system: the densities for the zones are not fixed. Different films will produce different densities. Heck, manipulating zone density is what all the N+1 development stuff is about.

The practical density for Zone VIII is what you get with three stops of exposure over the meter reading of a grey card. The 8 stops over 0.1 B+F (Zone 0) number only has validity in senistometry and has no relevance in the act of making a photograph.

In the back of Adams 'The Negative' are pages of HD curves giving the zone densities for various film and developer combinations.

The commonly used densities are just conveniences so that everyone agrees in conversation about what a Zone VIII exposure normally is. In your system ZVIII is defined as what you get.

Obviously as you vary development from N-2 to N+2 the density you get for a ZVIII exposure swings wildly.

As a rule you will not get the standard zone densities on your film when testing - and there is no point in diddling the EI and development time in a pointless pursuit of them. What you are interested in is the tone you get with a ZVIII exposure and the standard printing and developing methods you use to get the print you like. If you like to print everything on Grade 4 paper your tones are going to differ from someone fixated on Grade 1.

The goal, after all, is to make a photograph you like - the zone system is just an aid that may or may not help you in getting to this goal. The goal is not to get your system to fit a capricious edict of film density.

I keep a set of small print chips in the camera bag of the tones I get for my standard methods - they show what tone I will get with a ZVIII exposure when a ZV exposure produces 18% grey. The actual numeric density of this tone is completely irrelevant.
 

Photo Engineer

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What is "cast carbon"?

Sandy King

Sandy;

Carbon is suspended in very high purity glass at 21 different concentration from zero to a density of 3.0. The glass is melted, cast and joined to prepare a step wedge of glass cast with carbon. It has high transparency and uniformly black to gray coloration. They are used at Kodak for accurate speed determination of products at all regions of the spectrum without any of the distortions caused by silver step tablets.

They are quite expensive. You risk a lot if you break one.

The filters used to adjust the exposure light are also either cast carbon on deposited Iconel film filters.

PE
 

Chuck_P

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In the back of Adams 'The Negative' are pages of HD curves giving the zone densities for various film and developer combinations.

Yes, and closer inspection shows that for every development target i.e., +2, +1, N, -1, and -2, the negative is developed to the same density range with that range being determined by what is considered "normal" development. I believe this is a ZS fact that is consistently not realized by many (not that you're one, it's JMO).

A "normal" Zone VIII density of 1.3 minus the speed point density for Zone I of 0.1 = a range of 1.2. Each curve shows, for example, that all N+2 curves cross a negative density of 1.3 at Zone VI, crossing 1.3 at Zone VII for N+1, 1.3 at VIII for N, 1.3 at IX for -1, and 1.3 at X for -2. It's the very definition of expansion and contraction of the SBR recorded on the film---expanding the SBR to "normal" or contracting the SBR to "normal", but only after "normal" is defined by testing.

In this way, with each exposure regardless of how you plan your development, the density range of the negative will be consistant with a range that optimizes the printing of the extreme low end of the scale (Zone I) and the extreme upper end of the scale (Zone VIII) or Zone IX for some.

I've calibrated my "normal" development time from the traditional Zone VIII density of 1.3 that works for me so far. I've mentioned before in other threads that Alan Ross speaks of calibrating his "normal" development time by targeting a Zone IX density of 1.45, making the negative density range 1.45 -0.1 = 1.35.
 

Photo Engineer

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There are both cast carbon and evaporated carbon. The one described appears to be evaporated carbon. I have used both. The cast carbon type was more common at EK AFAIK.

Thanks for looking that up.

PE
 

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Stephen;

There is a transformation algorithm or methodology using graphs which can reconcile the two, but basically the Zone System is a subset of the basic theory of sensitometry/densitometry and in B&W is what is also called the silver criterion. This is a method whereby the tone of the silver is related to its printing density.

PE
 
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I actually think it's about flare. ZS doesn't take it into consideration. It considers normal as seven stops (log 2.1). Tone Reproduction considers the statistically average luminance range as 2.2 or 7 1/3 stops, but then it subtracts 1 stop to 1 1/3 stops flare. Kodak used 0.34 or 1 1/4 stops for some time, but changed to 0.40 or 1 1/3 stops sometime in the late 80s or early 90s because of the increase use of 35mm cameras (more lens elements equals more flare). In effect, you only need to process for around a 6 stop subject luminance range. Take a look at the density value one stop down and it falls around the approximate tone reproduction aim.

Why haven't more ZS practitioners noticed the discrepancy? I believe it's because most don't confirm the density range beyond the ZS test. Flare brings down the density range making it conform. So then the ZS aim works, but not the way it is advertised.
 
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I have thought of this Steve, here is one of my crazy theories, so here is an answer that is both non-condescending AND non-substantive:

Flare in the good-old Pentax 1 degree meter.

For those not following, flare in the meter causes underexposure of your zone I but these low values are 'filled-in' by lens flare on the film plane; leaving the Zone System user oblivious to the situation.
 

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Stephen;

You are correct of course. In fact, professional films when compared to amateur films are 0.03 lower in contrast, on average, due to the flare factor in amateur films which require the higher contrast. And so, Gold 400 contrast is 0.63 while Portra is closer to 0.60. Of course, I am giving values for the neutral gamma, not the individual colors which vary due to interimage and masking effects.

But it is the same in B&W.

PE
 
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I've taken that first part out of that post, but I'm happy to see others have noticed the neglected influence of flare. Now, I could of used math to illustrate the point, but people tend to either get very quiet or defensive in it's presence.

Sorry, just a small correction in your post, it's not so much about flare in the meter (given ZS testing uses a single toned object) but in the camera, but the rest is spot on.
 
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Chuck_P

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Why haven't more ZS practitioners noticed the discrepancy?

I couldn't disagree with you more, but that is why we have APUG to express these things.

The whole reason for doing film testing is to remove those very type dicrepancies-----it is a major reason for testing using the same equipment that is used in making the photograph. The book "The Negative" has been invoked a few times so I'll chime in with it. I would refer you to Appendix 1, Film Testing Procedures. But perhaps you don't have it so I'll write the quotes that make my point:

"The tests that follow have been designed to account for the variables that exist in each person's working system----shutter and aperture, meter, lens flare, and procedures of development. We first establish the appropriate film speed that ensures the optimum exposure (as determined by the recording of the low values), and then test for the degree of development that provides the desired high-value density. Once these two extreme values are controlled the normal scale will be qute predictable, and good quality negatives that print readily on "normal" paper should be assured."

"In conducting such tests it is important to establish a single system of equipment and materials. Choose a film and developer you use often, and be sure to use the same camera, shutter and lens throughout. Your exposure meter, lens diaphragm, shutter and darkroom thermometer must be reliable----calibrated by a technician if possible. Once this "system" has been tested, any variations introduced by a change of equipment (such as the possible difference in aperture calibration or flare introduced by changing lenses) should be quite apparent if they are significant. For a change of film and/or development, of course, new tests must be conducted."

IMO, it basically boils down to whether you choose to believe these statements or not. But the very act of testing film to gain control over the extremes of the negative contrast range you are testing for eliminates the concerns that you are mentioning. The mathematics of lens flare are rendered mute by proper testing and subsequent consistency in your own procedures.
 

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The fatal flaw of all these systems is the attempt to characterize the HD curve with only the one film speed number.

That any of them work is testimony to how sloppy one can be and still produce an acceptable (to one's self) image.

If you use the actual HD curve, and measure the light with a spot meter at the film plane (Sinar) or paper plane (Darkroom Automation) then all these problems vaporize. No mathematics needed. No HD numbers needed, either, if you use the paper's native tone response from a grey-scale test strip.
 
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Lee L

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I happened to be reading through some old issues of Camera & Darkroom and Darkroom Photography this weekend. One issue had a test of flare in two 1-degree spotmeters. IIRC, one model (Pentax?) was not useful with greater than 8.1 stops difference between a small black circle and a white surround. The Minolta was about 3 stops better (less flare) before being thrown off by the white surround. It would take a lot of searching to find the reference, but I'll post if I do find it.

I had noticed in use that my Minolta was surprisingly (at least to me) immune to nearby large differences in brightness. I made a small aperture in a black card to cover negatives for spot metering negative densities, and it made almost no difference in readings vs a surrounding lightbox surface with 35mm film, even with higher negative densities.

Lee
 
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Testing is important, but there's good testing and bad testing. One of the primary concerns within any testing procedure has to do with controlling the variables. Step Tablets are contacted in order to eliminate such variables as flare. The higher the degree of accuracy, the more stringent the controls. As P.E. states, Kodak uses a carbon step tablet. They also use densitometers that read to 0.0000. There's a big difference between a value of 2 and a value of 2.00 or 2.0000. And as we all know from personal experience, the more accurate something has to be, the harder it is to achieve and usually the more expensive it is to do. With film, the best testing is done with a sensitometer which produces repeatable known exposures with a known color temperature. A camera, not so much. And the concept of personalizing to your equipment, mostly myth.

There's more out there then just The Negative and ZS related material. Zone System is a simplified version of tone reproduction and a flawed one at that. Yes, Adam's has many mistakes in his reasoning. I want to make this perfectly clear, just because he's wrong on much of the reasoning, the technique can and does produce good results. Let's take an absurd example, but one that is true. A photographer had built a new darkroom. He then proceeded to retest his materials. Test upon test wasn't producing the desired results. He eventually concluded that the table was two inches too high. Another example, I could claim that the most accurate processing only happens on nights with a full moon. While the quality of the processing may indeed be excellent, is the moon really a factor?

So it is with most ZS testing. It doesn't factor in flare. 80% of flare comes from the subject. The test card is a single tone. It has limited flare. I've done testing with a variety of cards. Some had a small black square in the middle surround by white. Some were all black, all white, all gray, or a combination of the three. I included a sensitometric strip with each of the tests. Believe me flare is a factor. These tests were part of a article I wrote for PHOTO Techniques a few years back. They cut the manuscript down by 2/3 with much of that being test data.

A sensitometric test doesn't incorporate flare as anyone who has seen a film curve knows. You need to factor it in when interpreting any results. ISO film speed includes a flare factor. As any person familiar with the ZS knows, you meter the subject and stop down four stops. The ISO speed point falls 3 1/3 stops down from the mid-tone. (note: The statistically average subject luminance range is 7 1/3 stops.) Why place the speed point at one stop above the shadow placement? The answer is flare. Without flare, film speed would be one stop slower. How is the ZS wrong? It doesn't assume any flare and uses a point 2/3 stops lower to calculate speed. Ever wonder why most ZS "personal" film speeds are 1/2 to 1 stop slower than the ISO speed? There you go. In effect, most photographers who use ZS testing are overexposing their film 1/2 to 1 stop, but that won't detrimentally affect image quality. Consider ASA speed prior to 1960. Every film was one stop slower - Tri-X was 200, Plus-X was 50. And not every scene has the same amount of flare even if they have identical luminance ranges. Still, in general, low luminance ranges have lower flare and high luminance ranges have higher flare. A high flare situation will produce a higher shadow placement which in effect means a higher film speed. A scene with a low flare factor will effectively produce a lower film speed. No matter how much testing you do, there's really no way to guarantee exact shadow placement. There's a lot more to film speed theory and exposure theory than you might think. (I've written a diatribe over at Understanding ISO Setting thread that covers more).

I've also attached a graphic illustration of this point. The quadrant on the right is the camera image. One curve represents a no flare camera image and the other a one stop flare factor. You can see how the camera image interacts with the film curve. As you can see there is a 2/3 stop difference in shadow placement between the ZS testing approach and 0.10 speed point.

Because flare brings the shadows up approximately one stop, it also reduces the apparent subject luminance range one stop. So a seven stop scene will have the appearance of a six stop range at the film plane. How can the ZS test which doesn't incorporate this factor still produce negatives that print on a grade two paper which according to the ISO standards should be around 1.05 to 1.15 for diffusion enlargers? For this, we need to use a little math. (note to P.E.: This is why I like to use math. It's a good way to avoid the "no it isn't - yes it is" back and forth argument)

The slope of a curve is calculated by using the equation rise over run. Contrast Index is calculated in a similar manner. To determine the aim CI for a given subject luminance range, the equation is:

CI = Desired Negative Density Range / Log Subject Luminance Range - Flare

For the statistically average scene with the statistically average flare, it would be:

1.10 / 2.2 - .34 = 0.59

Kodak's 0.58 comes from a negative DR of 1.05 and flare of 0.40. I've used a 1 1/4 stop flare factor since AA shot mostly large format and LF lenses have fewer elements.

Zone System testing figures a 7 stop subject luminance range, no flare, and a desired negative density range of 1.25 (1.35-0.10). That comes to:

1.25 / 2.1 = 0.59

Conclusion? You get the same results, but one has flawed reasoning. Check the curves in the back of The Negative. Find Zone VII and see if the negative density range is around 1.10 or 1.05.

For any testing, you need to know and understand the many variables and factors.
 
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Chuck_P

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I'm not here to contest your math or the graph, or get into the rightness or wrongness of AA and the ZS, that's never been my intention, there's plenty of that going around. The info you submit is surely interesting but it doesn't prove anything as far as I can tell, IMO.

I can speak only of my own practical field applications and your assertions simply can't be confirmed by me. I have no added density in my shadow placements (BTW, I place shadows from zone I to IV, not always 4 stops down, as you suggested, why so inflexible an application?) as a result of flare. Or if it is there, then it is so small as to be irrelevant so that not even my densitometer says that my Zone II placement has a density of almost Zone III or more. Therefore, I have to believe that the testing certainly does take all the factors involved (aperture, shutter, flare, processing, etc...) and places them in my direct control when I develop my negatives to the same density range each time, no matter if it is +2, +1, N, -1, -2, or -3 development. I take the traditional ZS approach and develop to a range of 1.2, it works for me so far. I have one attachment that shows the range I develop to.
___________________________

Apart from all that, it's good advice to expose the wedge in the camera to submit the wedge and the film to the same equipment that will be used in practical applications.
 

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I never implied that the technique doesn't produce quality images. I am saying that the theory is wrong. As they say in Princess Bride, "I don't think that means what you think that means." There is a distinction between the concept of film speed and the pragmatic act of making an exposure. I'm trying to discuss the concept of film speed. It's immaterial whether technique A or B works for you or not. BTW, film curves are practically meaningless on their own. The key is in the interpretation. Look at your own curves. As I've said, tone reproduction theory (that means lots of real world testing by scientists) show that the average scene produces an average flare factor of at least one stop. That means that a seven stop scene will appear as a six stop scene at the film plane. In other words, you are processing film for a six stop range for normal even though the actual scene is seven stops. Look at your own curves for normal. What is the density for Zone VII? That value is consistent with the ISO standard in determination of paper grades. And in case you are not aware, Contrast Index or slope is a way of determining density range (i.e. the comparative math I did). Speaking of Contrast Index, a fixed flare value can't be used to find the aim Contrast Index over a range of various subject luminance ranges because the average flare value changes with a change in the subject luminance range. A fact many systems miss in their contrast determination (Way Beyond Monochrome for one).

You've also misunderstood my statement about placement. Traditional ZS film speed testing is to meter the card and stop down four stops to find the speed point for Zone I. This is about testing and not about shooting. They are two different subjects.

Have you ever tested specifically for flare? It's there and it's variable. From your posts, I have the impression you've limited yourself to the world of the Zone System. There are other books out there. Adams didn't invent sensitometry. In The Negative's acknowledgments, Adams thanks C.E. Kenneth Mees for "the immense help I received." Mees set-up and ran Kodak's R&D department. Loyd Jones ran the physics department under Mees and is responsible for pretty much all of what we consider modern exposure and tone reproduction theory. This includes film speed, log exposure range of papers, average subject luminance range, average daylight illuminance, and much more. He chaired the subcommittee on colorimetry which created the definition of color (yes, a true definition of color didn't exist until 1942 and for the record, color is psychophysical). I've sourced some of Jones papers over on the Understanding ISO thread for those interested. Who do you think understands the principles of photography more, Adams or Jones? If you want to better understand the principles of photography a good book to start with is Materials and Processes.

It so happens that I've done some flare testing. One of the tests used a shadow box which is a dark box with a shaded opening. The reason for the box is that in a zero flare environment, the box interior won't produce any detectable density. I then made a number of cards consisting of different tones and combination of tones. I cut a hole in the center of the cards to make a space for the shadow box opening. I took a reading off an 18% gray card and opened up 1/2 stop from the recommended reading (the reason can wait for another thread). The exposure didn't change for any of the tests. The only variable was the different cards place around the shadow box opening. If no flare existed, the dark box value should be the same as the film base. If flare didn't vary depending on the surrounding differences in the luminance range and distribution of the luminance range, then all the results would be at the same density. The attached graph illustrates the results. The 0.39 log-H difference equals 1 1/3 stop exposure difference caused by the influence of flare.

BTW, how does using a camera to contact a step tablet reflect real world use? The actual subject is on the outside of the camera. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about the practical and appropriate method of contacting a step tablet. I'm not even talking about the question of evenness with testing a step tablet in a camera, but your statement that you do it because it is "the same equipment that will be used in practical applications" isn't logical. From your previous posts, I know you don't incorporate camera exposure values into your test. So, how is this approach in exposing a wedge different than simply using an enlarger (not that you can't figure exposure values with an enlarger)?

Also, you have never mentioned how you actually calculate film speed once you determine the speed point.

I'm not questioning your intelligence. I just believe you have limited yourself to a single subset of photography, namely the Zone System. There's nothing wrong with that. Everybody's at different levels of expertise, interest, and experience and there's nothing wrong with that either. I also know people tend to hear things when they are ready to hear them. What I question is not being open to the facts.
 
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