Exeter Pan XX - what is it?

[faberryman]

But at least it works.

That's a pretty low bar.

 

[faberryman]

Presumably he buys enough of this film from the manufacturer to alert it to the fact that he sells it in a quantity sufficient that it feels some kind of commercial harm to it will follow unless he maintains secrecy?

The secrecy is the lure because everyone loves a mystery, and so people will buy a couple of rolls to try to figure out what it is. Once the secret is out, the mystery is gone, and interest plummets, and so do sales, because it is just some off brand or remainder film that other rebranders are also selling under a variety of different names. It's just a marketing game.

 

[pentaxuser]

Maybe pre-Brexit Kentmere?

Is there post-Brexit Kentmere and what's the difference or differences?

pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

post-Brexit Kentmere

would not be "Made in EU".

 

[koraks]

Is there post-Brexit Kentmere

Yes.

what's the difference or differences

Pre-Brexit: "Made in EU"
Post-Brexit: no longer made in EU.

 

[Agulliver]

That's a pretty low bar.

"At least it works" is something I said months ago right after I'd tried a few test shots. It was merely expressing mild relief that what I had bought could be used, and that I hadn't completely wasted my money.

As it turns out with some more use in various conditions, I rather like it....whatever it turns out to be.

Pre-Brexit Kentmere is not impossible. If it's been fridged or frozen it could be given a 2024 expiry date. A couple of weeks ago the vendor was offering 100 foot rolls for £60 which is something of a bargain if you like it. Regarding the "mystery", yes that is a selling point though I'd personally rather know. I did ask the vendor last year and he said he was "not permitted" to say. I took that to mean that the manufacturer doesn't want it's identity known.

 

[Donald Qualls]

the manufacturer doesn't want it's identity known.

Or his boss doesn't...

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes.



Pre-Brexit: "Made in EU"
Post-Brexit: no longer made in EU.

Thanks. So was this film that Donald suggested might be "pre-Brexit" Kentmere always made in the U.K. at Mobberley but it went from having the status of made in the EU to made in the U.K. because the U.K. was once part of the EU pre-Brexit but is no longer? It is as simple as that, nothing else changed?

So if this is Exeter Pan is Kentmere by another name then presumably as the U.K has been post Brexit since 31 January 2020 or 3 and a half years ago then Exeter Pan, if it ever were Kentmere will have had to say made in the U.K. In which case I am surprised that some Exeter Pan has not been coming though with its new label.

Has anyone seen a recent Exeter Pan film? If so what does the box now say. If it says made in the U.K. then as the lead detective always says in the U.K. in crime novels "The game's up" and Ilford's cover is blown. So what price the assertion by the seller that he is bound by an NDA or secrecy agreement of sorts that prevents him from revealing whose film it is indeed Kentmere?

The other thing that follows is that as has been known since June 2016 that the U.K. was leaving the EU then if it is Ilford, it has been on "borrowed time" in terms of secrecy since ever it agreed to sell this film. Indeed Agulliver's opening thread on this stuff was only Sept 2022 so the U.K. had by then made the "final break" All very puzzling

So assuming that the seller was able to secure a whole or part consignment from some unnamed party to whom Ilford sold a load of Kentmere when it still had the label made in the E.U. then the only way secrecy can be maintained is if the seller decides to stop selling once his stock of made in the E.U. Kentmere has run out

This would seem quite likely as such films tend to be sold by "here today, gone tomorrow" sources

However here's the one thing it seems to me that we can now rely on in our "U.K. post-Brexit"world:

Ilford's strategy of allowing Kentmere to be rebadged to whatever is desired by a third party seller has now been stopped as only Ilford makes film in the U.K.

So at last we can remove Ilford from amongst any possible guilty parties when it come to having to speculate about the origins of "unknown " films. Hurrah!

Of course this presumes that the new Ilford policy had definitely changed under its new owners from one of no rebadging at all to one of no rebadging except for Kentmere products

If anyone knows of the existence of a statement to this effect from the new company, IlfordPhoto, then I and I expect others here would be grateful for the link to the statement

pentaxuser

 

[Donald Qualls]

Exeter could also have enough film in a freezer somewhere to keep selling "Made in EU" for a decade or more before having to buy new film from Kentmere, even assuming this is a correct guess.

 

[Flighter]

Has anyone seen a recent Exeter Pan film? If so what does the box now say. If it says made in the U.K. then as the lead detective always says in the U.K. in crime novels "The game's up" and Ilford's cover is blown. So what price the assertion by the seller that he is bound by an NDA or secrecy agreement of sorts that prevents him from revealing whose film it is indeed Kentmere?

I bought a 25ft roll a while back to use as a learning curve for bulk loading befoe getting a roll of Vision3 250D so I could get back into cheap(er) colour photography. I enjoyed the Exeter Pan so much that the Vision3 hasn’t materialised and instead I bought a 100ft roll of Exeter on 20 June (2023) - the can still says 'Made in EU'.

The can also says respooled from larger rolls, so as Donald Qualls says, it could be a while before anything changes if current stock is still taken from a pre-Brexit Harman roll.

 

[MattKing]

I bought a 25ft roll a while back to use as a learning curve for bulk loading befoe getting a roll of Vision3 250D so I could get back into cheap(er) colour photography. I enjoyed the Exeter Pan so much that the Vision3 hasn’t materialised and instead I bought a 100ft roll of Exeter on 20 June (2023) - the can still says 'Made in EU'. View attachment 345722
The can also says respooled from larger rolls, so as Donald Qualls says, it could be a while before anything changes if current stock is still taken from a pre-Brexit Harman roll. View attachment 345721

That "Respooled from larger rolls" definitely says re-purposed cine film stock to me.
What perforations are used?

 

[Flighter]

From the 25ft roll

 

[Brad Deputy]

Earlier in the thread it was mentioned to be similar/identical to Ultrafine Finesse 400. I haven't had the pleasure of this film yet --anyone with some examples to try comparing? Perhaps closely compare the undeveloped film's color(s)?

 

[faberryman]

100' of Exeter 400 is £59.95 on eBay. 100' of Kentmere 400 is £68.00 at Analogue Wonderland. I don't know if either or both of those prices include VAT. I don't know about shipping either, but I am not seeing a huge savings by buying a pig in a poke. But maybe this isn't about saving money. Maybe this is about the thrill of buying a pig in a poke.

 

[MattKing]

From the 25ft roll
View attachment 345725

I think those are still film perforations, but someone like @cmacd123 would be better able to say.

 

[mtnbkr]

100' of Exeter 400 is £59.95 on eBay. 100' of Kentmere 400 is £68.00 at Analogue Wonderland. I don't know if either or both of those prices include VAT. I don't know about shipping either, but I am not seeing a huge savings by buying a pig in a poke. But maybe this isn't about saving money. Maybe this is about the thrill of buying a pig in a poke.

Kentmere 400 is $72 (about £55) from B&H and next day shipping is free. I'd try the Exeter film if it were half, maybe 2/3 the price of Kentmere, but at the same price or more, no thanks.

Chris

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes it could be a massive roll of pre-Brexit Kentmere that has not yet been sold out but it all just seems strange to me that an e-bay seller has been able to buy that much of it and from whom? Direct from Ilford or from a third party? If it's the latter then why has it been re-sold to an e-bay seller? He must have made a pretty low offer for it to be able to sell it at £59 so was it a "fire sale" and if so why?

If it is direct from Ilford then I wonder how big a roll does an e-bay seller have to buy. I also wonder why the Exeter seller has decided to sell in as little as 25 ft?

Flighter, can you say what 25 ft cost?

Does he have the equipment and facilities to cut what I imagine to be a massive roll into this unusual size?He has a camera and optics shop but I wonder how big an operation and premises he has and how much cash such a shop has to place a large order with Ilford or buy a large amount of Kentmere film from a third party? He was in Sept 2022 or is that currently because the advert I clicked onto now has been updated by e-bay, has 5 remaining to be sold. Seems a very small amount for someone who has bought a massive roll. Here's what Agulliver's link to the e-bay advert said in Sept 2002 :

EXETER PAN XX 400 B&W FRESH BULK 30M x 35mm FAST FILM DEV ILFORD HP5 FOMOPAN 400

What does that mean? Is it either HP5 or is it Fomapan 400 or both and what you get is a lucky dip? When I click onto it it say the seller is away until 7 Aug 2023. Did it say this in Sept 2022 when Agulliver first linked to it? If so it seems strange that it would tell us about the seller being away in 11 months in the future?

A 100ft roll of Kentmere is now £73 direct from Ilford and as faberryman says £68 from Analogue Wonderland but somehow this ebay seller is able to sell it at £59. If it's Kentmere we should be beating a path to his door or maybe not if he has only 5 left to sell and if it's HP5 as the advert says then this is so cheap compared to HP5 that the queque should be stretching back to say Bristol at least

Lots of questions which taken together may suggest to me at least that it is not Kentmere

pentaxuser

 

[cmacd123]

I think those are still film perforations, but someone like @cmacd123 would be better able to say.

the picture does show KS style perforations which are the norm for Still film, and Motion Picture print film. Movie Cameras in North America and Europe are generaly set to use "Bell ANd Howell" style perfs which have rounded ends. (and are slightly narrower) Movie cameras from the former Soviet Union actually use KS perfs. Due to timing of International standards. This image is from the Current Kodak Motion Picture film catalog, and shows the differences in the Dimensions.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Charles.
I looked for sources like that reference, but it is difficult to find anything that references still films!

 

[cmacd123]

Thanks Charles.
I looked for sources like that reference, but it is difficult to find anything that references still films!

that is for Movie films.... But the KS perfs are the same. One trouble is that the details are part of an official standerd, and standards organizations get their funding by selling copies of the Standard, typically at 100 Dollars a page. so you can only find indirect references.

The Kodak movie site, has the movie film catalog, which has several useful pages of reference material. I blantantly used copy and paste to get that diagram from the European Catalog, that I downloaded the other day toanswer the question from the poster in Bulgaria.

https://www.kodak.com/go/motion is the Motion Picture landing page, (it will take you to the current much longer Actual URL) Click on Products and then Product catalog. the USA version has a few more pages than the "Canada" one. ALso under resorces and tools are the Processing manuals if you want the Official formulas for D96

 

[MattKing]

that is for Movie films.... But the KS perfs are the same.

That was what I figured, but it is difficult to find a resource - other than people like you! - who confirms that, and I can link to for reference.

 

[cmacd123]

Still 35mm film is almost always KS 1870 perfs. But you are right, it is just assumed and so seldom called out.

the wikipedia article on film perforations also shows some of the "Other" movie perforation formats.. (like Fox Holes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_perforations

for fun, I just checked several still data sheets from Kodak, Ilford, and Foma. while all decribe the 35mm film as perforated both edges, NONE actually mention what type of perfs. BUT I do recall some older ones which DID mention KS1870.

 

[Flighter]

Flighter, can you say what 25 ft cost?

£19.95 plus postage of £5.65 giving a total of £25.60, I ordered on 29 April 2023.

It was the cheapest bulk film I could get and at that time all I wanted was some film to use as a trial for bulk loading. I liked the film though, so decided to get a 100 ft roll soI could keep using it.

 

[Don_ih]

EXETER PAN XX 400 B&W FRESH BULK 30M x 35mm FAST FILM DEV ILFORD HP5 FOMOPAN 400

What does that mean?

It doesn't mean anything, really. It has HP5 and Fomapan in that title to show up in searches for HP5 and Fomapan - because the guy is selling film that he says is iso400. He doesn't need anything special to spool out 25 feet if he can also spool out 100 feet. And he doesn't need a lot of space for it, either - but does need a darkroom.

 

[pentaxuser]

£19.95 plus postage of £5.65 giving a total of £25.60, I ordered on 29 April 2023.

It was the cheapest bulk film I could get and at that time all I wanted was some film to use as a trial for bulk loading. I liked the film though, so decided to get a 100 ft roll soI could keep using it.

Thanks. Do you use it at ISO 400 and did you have to decide development times yourself or does it come with any instructions such as may help establish what it is?

From the discussion between cmacd123 and Matt I was unsure of what conclusions were reached but I think it might be that the film Fligher's showed us was still film but cine film also has the same perforations

Is this a correct conclusion or can we be sure it is or isn't cine film stock?

Thanks

pentaxuser