Edible Film Developers

[Gerald C Koch]

have you tried boiling it with baking soda? was the film acros?

If you boil a solution of sodium bicarbonate for a minute or so it decomposes to sodium carbonate. Even at room temperature bicarbonate solutions do not keep. I have hard water so when I cook dried beans I have to add a pinch of sodium bicarbonate to the water. Once the bicarbonate hits the hot water there is a fizz and its gone.

 

[pdeeh]

If you want to learn more read Fieser and Fieser.



PE

having looked that up, I've decided to wait for the TV miniseries

 

[Alan Johnson]

In a test I found the developing agent from glucose to be notably less active than is sodium ascorbate in Xtol.
Details- Glucose 2tbs, Sodium carbonate decahydrate 3tbs,water to 600ml, heat at boiling 10 min, cool.Add ~1.2 tbs baking soda.
Store in sealed container. 2 days later add sodium sulfite and phenidone equivalent to 80g/L and 0.2g/L, pH=9.0 +/- 0.1.
Development time for old APX 400 ~32min 20C, 4 times that in Xtol 1+0 (8 min).

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

In a test I found the developing agent from glucose to be notably less active than is sodium ascorbate in Xtol.
Details- Glucose 2tbs, Sodium carbonate decahydrate 3tbs,water to 600ml, heat at boiling 10 min, cool.Add ~1.2 tbs baking soda.
Store in sealed container. 2 days later add sodium sulfite and phenidone equivalent to 80g/L and 0.2g/L, pH=9.0 +/- 0.1.
Development time for old APX 400 ~32min 20C, 4 times that in Xtol 1+0 (8 min).

interesting...how does this compare to your earlier test? wasn't your first test @ about 10 minutes?

 

[Alan Johnson]

The new test had much more Xtol-like conditions than that in post 405 but it was done with well out of date film and with a 2 day delay after boiling.
I will try again with these possbile error sources avoided.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

The new test had much more Xtol-like conditions than that in post 405 but it was done with well out of date film and with a 2 day delay after boiling.
I will try again with these possbile error sources avoided.

also...where did you get your glucose? Years ago I used pure dextrose/glucose & fructose...but recently I've been using honey & pineapple juice...because I have 2 projects coming where I specifically want to use honey and/or pineapple juice....when I got dextrose before I got it from a pharmacy & it was pretty expensive

 

[Alan Johnson]

In a better test the development time was about double the Xtol 1+0 time.
Details- Glucose 20g, Sodium Carbonate Decahydrate 40g, Water 500ml, heat at boiling 10 min.
Cool, add Sodium Sulfite 50g (=80g/L), phenidone 0.12g (=0.2g/L), sodium bicarbonate 25g, make up to 600ml. pH=8.9 +/- 0.1. Develop Acros (EI=100) 16m 20C.
The glucose developer was about half as active as sodium ascorbate in Xtol,possibly it has bigger molecules.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

looks great

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

does anyone have experience with using iodized table salt as a restrainer?

gonna try 1 teaspoon per 500 ml and see how it works

 

[Photo Engineer]

The amount and purity is unpredictable, and it contains Sodium Silicate. The latter can become embedded in film if not fully dissolved.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

The amount and purity is unpredictable, and it contains Sodium Silicate. The latter can become embedded in film if not fully dissolved.

PE

thanks....so it's one of those things that are fun to try to see if it works...then I can go back to KBr

I think I prefer to keep the sodium silicate in my furnace and out of my film

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

ok...the results are in:

Pineapple Juice 1
table Salt 0

Images look ok, maybe a bit underdeveloped...but I see plenty of fog

 

[Photo Engineer]

Chloride is often your enemy.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

ok...read in another thread that Sodium Sulfite eventually turns into Sodium Sulfate

all my Sulfite is years old,,,is there a way I can check it?

google claims Sodium Sulfite solutions have a ph of 8-10 & sodium sulfate soltions are about 7

does that sound accurate?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Add a drop or two of Sulfuric Acid or Hydrochloric Acid. If it fizzes and you detect the odor of Sulfur Dioxide, then it is good. Do this outside and do it carefully. You do not need strong acid. If it does not fizz, there is no problem, but it may mean partial conversion to Sulfate. Also, not a problem.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

now the real serious calibration begins...got an actual pineapple so I can see if there's a big difference between fresh juice from a pineapple and canned juice

why you may ask? because a friend is on a shoot in Hawaii and I promised I'd develop a roll in pineapple developer if she shoots a roll of pineapple photos

since the idea for those photos is that pineapple juice is doing the developing I won't be adding phenidone

I already know KBr is a huge help in reducing the rampant fog I tend to get...

one question is...will I get a benefit from adding sodium sulfite? Since I'm mixing fresh developer & using it quickly I don't think I need a preservative...but are there other reasons to use it?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Solvent action?

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

Solvent action?

and solvent action will reduce grain? ...any change in development time?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Solvent action does many things depending on developer formulation. It can change speed, contrast, Dmax, fog and etc.....

It can also change development time.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

thanks....

I'll have to try a with-and-without test of same clips of same roll in same dev batch @ same time

 

[Rudeofus]

If the active development agent in whatever developer you are about to brew is some dihydroxy-benzene, then sulfite may act as scavenger for oxidized developer, and thereby make development more even (c.f. Hydroquinone based developers with or without sulfite).

While e.g. oxidized Catechol or Pyrogallol form brown insoluble compounds at low sulfite levels (c.f. staining developers), this may not work as well with these substituted Catechols, so sulfite may be good for these, too.

If the most active development agent in your pineapple juice is Ascorbic Acid, then sulfite won't scavenge oxidized Ascorbate, but it will still do all these things which PhotoEngineer brought up.

PS: One more thing that I would like to bring up: both, dihydroxy benzenes and Ascorbic Acid will need moderately high pH of about 10 in order to develop film, and none of these developers will be remotely edible. Since coffee appears to contain a compound which accelerates development by ascorbate, it might be possible to use Sodium Bicarbonate instead of Sodium Carbonate as alkali, plus one could leave out the sulfite. This could potentially create a developer, which would actually be edible, although not necessarily tasty.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

If the active development agent in whatever developer you are about to brew is some dihydroxy-benzene, then sulfite may act as scavenger for oxidized developer, and thereby make development more even (c.f. Hydroquinone based developers with or without sulfite).

While e.g. oxidized Catechol or Pyrogallol form brown insoluble compounds at low sulfite levels (c.f. staining developers), this may not work as well with these substituted Catechols, so sulfite may be good for these, too.

If the most active development agent in your pineapple juice is Ascorbic Acid, then sulfite won't scavenge oxidized Ascorbate, but it will still do all these things which PhotoEngineer brought up.

PS: One more thing that I would like to bring up: both, dihydroxy benzenes and Ascorbic Acid will need moderately high pH of about 10 in order to develop film, and none of these developers will be remotely edible. Since coffee appears to contain a compound which accelerates development by ascorbate, it might be possible to use Sodium Bicarbonate instead of Sodium Carbonate as alkali, plus one could leave out the sulfite. This could potentially create a developer, which would actually be edible, although not necessarily tasty.

thanks.....I don't think ascorbic acid is adding much to the development here.... activity dropped waaayyyyyy off when I accidentally underheated the juice/sodium carbonate mixture.....so I think it's whatever we're getting by heating glucose/fructose with sodium carbonate --- we get similar results when using pure sugars, honey, fruit juice, etc

I've been testing my ph with ph paper -- no meter -- and they show ph usually around 11 +/-

the goal here isn't actually to make an edible developer...that was mostly a joke when I started this thread as I was amazed at how many things from the grocery store could develop film -- or at least leave a faint image

thanks

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

not sure how much sodium sulfite I'm going to add....but probably something similar to what Alan Johnson did in post #459

later tonight gonna test two strips of tri-x from the same roll in same dev...same time...only difference is one will get the sodium sulfite

 

[Rudeofus]

not sure how much sodium sulfite I'm going to add....

Since Sodium Sulfite does several things at once, there are different levels of Sodium Sulfite which are useful for different reasons:

1. 1-5 g/l: prevent immediate oxidation of development agent
   
2. 10-30 g/l: scavenge oxidized developer, prevent staining. Also, very mild solvent effect which boosts film speed compared to dev without sulfite.
   
3. 30-125 g/l: add solvent effect which softens grain.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

Since Sodium Sulfite does several things at once, there are different levels of Sodium Sulfite which are useful for different reasons:

1. 1-5 g/l: prevent immediate oxidation of development agent
   
2. 10-30 g/l: scavenge oxidized developer, prevent staining. Also, very mild solvent effect which boosts film speed compared to dev without sulfite.
   
3. 30-125 g/l: add solvent effect which softens grain.

thanks...that's exactly the kind of guide I need