Edible Film Developers

Hard times #35

Hard times #35

  • 2
  • 0
  • 133
Fancy lamp

Fancy lamp

  • 0
  • 0
  • 103
Monday, Monday

Monday, Monday

  • 0
  • 0
  • 89
Hard times # 33

Hard times # 33

  • 0
  • 0
  • 94

Forum statistics

Threads
184,469
Messages
2,563,290
Members
96,083
Latest member
ChromeDome
Recent bookmarks
0

Alan Johnson

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
2,759
However, if they need additional Ascorbic acid and/or Phenidone for proper development of film, I think it defeats the purpose.
Rather a minority opinion, can you name any apart from coffee that meet the condition of working with alkali alone?
With added phenidone or ascorbate the edible foodstuff may act as a secondary developer , regenerating phenidone, or as a primary developer ,apparently being regenerated by ascorbate. The edible foodstuff surely complies with what is commonly called a developer in these cases too.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,485
Location
India
Format
Multi Format
Rather a minority opinion, can you name any apart from coffee that meet these conditions?

It doesn't matter if any one herb/fruit/vegetable is a good source of both Ascorbic acid and Polyphenols or not. You can use a mixture where one herb/fruit/vegetable is rich in Ascorbic acid and the other is in Polyphenols. E.g. Amla or Broccoli with Thyme or Rosemary.


With added phenidone or ascorbate the edible foodstuff may act as a secondary developer , regenerating phenidone, or as a primary developer ,apparently being regenerated by ascorbate. The edible foodstuff surely complies with what is commonly called a developer in these cases too.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. If the edible stuff is able to develop film satisfactorily on its own without needing an additional developing agent, then there is nothing to argue against it. But it appears that, with the possible exception of instant coffee, no other edible stuff can develop film satisfactorily.

Now, some edible stuff do have Ascorbic acid and can work as a weak developer. Such a food stuff can plausibly make a potent developer when used with additional Ascorbic acid. In such a scenario I can simply use the requisite amount of Ascorbic acid instead of attempting to supplement the natural Ascorbic acid in the edible stuff with the synthetic one.

It is also plausible that a food stuff rich in Ascorbic acid can also work in conjunction with Phenidone. If this pairing works well without needing additional Ascorbic acid then fine. But if it needs additional Ascorbic acid despite the use of Phenidone, then again I can simply use requisite amount of Ascorbic acid and Phenidone instead of trying to supplement.

Now, consider edible stuff that are rich in Polyphenols. They seem to invariably need Ascorbic acid to get going. It is not clear how much of developing is due to Polyphenols vs Ascorbic acid. Hence I suggested the Thyme proponents to do a simple test in the other thread.

Hope this is more clear. :smile:
 

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
10,909
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
with the possible exception of instant coffee, no other edible stuff can develop film satisfactorily.

Just to be clear, it does not have to be instant, never mind cheap-cheap instant. I've seen multiple reports of making successful Caffenol with espresso brewed from Arabica beans as well as drip brewed coffee of various sorts. Seems the main feature is it has to be strong enough -- well above the usual drip or instant drinking strength before adding the alkali, in my experience. Instant is used a lot because it's inexpensive (especially in the USA) and convenient, and you can start with room temperature water so don't have to wait for your coffee to cool before you can proceed. Seems to me the tannins in wine and tea have also been noted as able to develop exposed silver halides (tannic acid is more or less just a polymer of gallic acid, which is a know developing agent, precursor of pyrogallol).
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,485
Location
India
Format
Multi Format
I've seen multiple reports of making successful Caffenol with espresso brewed from Arabica beans as well as drip brewed coffee of various sorts.

Do these espresso developers work well without Ascorbic acid? Plausibly they will but is there any firsthand report?
 

markjwyatt

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
2,263
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
isn't red wine supposed to be a good developer ?
i have been meaning to get some gut-rot and processing some film in it ..
but the problem is i keep drinking it instead ...

Well it would be a staining developer, and you could use it to get redscale shots with B&W film!
 

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
10,909
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
I'm sure we'd have to ask the people who posted their images and reports. I'm pretty confident, however, that there's nothing of consequence in high-robusta instant that isn't in 100% Arabica brewed or espresso -- the proportions will differ, but that just means you may need more (or less) time if you start with espresso vs. instant.

I'd check myself -- I have an espresso machine that I haven't used in years due to lack of counter space -- but it'll probably be after I retire (three years or so) before I have time.
 

Pentacon_777

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
12
Location
Finland
Format
35mm
I wonder if next formula would be working developer

Roseglow 7

12g Cloves (ground and then mixed with low polaric index solvent, example 120ml everclear and steeping mixture about 4h in 40 degree Celsius water bath. Maybe ad 1g sodium sulfite)
40g rosehip powder (steeped in 40 degree water 4h and then filtered)
60g sodium carbonate
And maybe 66g sodium sulfite
And maybe 8g ascorbic acid
Strong roobois tea to 1000ml

I think it can work based on what I have read about chemical properties of these ingredients.
 
Last edited:

relistan

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
1,324
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Format
Multi Format
I wonder if next formula would be working developer

Roseglow 7

12g Cloves (ground and then mixed with low polaric index solvent, example 120ml everclear and steeping mixture about 4h in 40 degree Celsius water bath. Maybe ad 1g sodium sulfite)
40g rosehip powder (steeped in 40 degree water 4h and then filtered)
60g sodium carbonate
And maybe 66g sodium sulfite
And maybe 8g ascorbic acid
Strong roobois tea to 1000ml

I think it can work based on what I have read about chemical properties of these ingredients.

Anything that contains enough quercetin or chlorogenic acids to be a saturated solution, combined with enough ascorbic acid, at ph above 9.7, will be a capable developer comparable to caffenol-C. Tannic acid is one of the very first developing agents. If rooibos has a notable tannic acid component then it might help with development a little bit. That would be quite a weak concentration of it.
 

Pentacon_777

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
12
Location
Finland
Format
35mm
Anything that contains enough quercetin or chlorogenic acids to be a saturated solution, combined with enough ascorbic acid, at ph above 9.7, will be a capable developer comparable to caffenol-C. Tannic acid is one of the very first developing agents. If rooibos has a notable tannic acid component then it might help with development a little bit. That would be quite a weak concentration of it.

This should contain about these amounts of possible developing agents and antioxidants
12g cloves
1-1.6g eugenol
0.09g Gallic acid
0.2-0.3g hidrolizable tannins
0.2g quercetin
0.08g catechol
0.06g protocatechuic acid

10g roobois tea
0.01g Orientin
0.008g Isoorientin
0.012g Aspalathin
0.012g Rutin
0.001g quercetin

40g rosehip powder
0.002g Gallic acid
0.002g Procyanidin B2
0.004g Chlorogenic (trans-5-O-caffeoylquinic) acid

And probably there are more compounds also but these amounts I found from different articles
 

relistan

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
1,324
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Format
Multi Format
This should contain about these amounts of possible developing agents and antioxidants
12g cloves
1-1.6g eugenol
This is not likely a developing agent AFAICT

0.09g Gallic acid
This is a very weak developing agent

0.2-0.3g hidrolizable tannins
Probably a very weak developing agent

0.2g quercetin
0.08g catechol
0.06g protocatechuic acid
Are you able to get all of that into solution? I would doubt it for the quercetin unless one of these other ingredients makes it more soluble (this is possible). But I know from testing that 0.02g of quercetin with 15g of ascorbic acid is a pretty good developer. Quercetin acts pretty much just like catechol. If there is indeed plain catechol here I would expect that this plus the quercetin plus about 15g of ascorbic acid in a carbonate solution is going to work.
 

Pentacon_777

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
12
Location
Finland
Format
35mm
This is not likely a developing agent AFAICT


This is a very weak developing agent


Probably a very weak developing agent


Are you able to get all of that into solution? I would doubt it for the quercetin unless one of these other ingredients makes it more soluble (this is possible). But I know from testing that 0.02g of quercetin with 15g of ascorbic acid is a pretty good developer. Quercetin acts pretty much just like catechol. If there is indeed plain catechol here I would expect that this plus the quercetin plus about 15g of ascorbic acid in a carbonate solution is going to work.

I doubt quercetin solubility too with minimum of 100ml ethanol should be possible but then mixed with water it will probably precipitate. Unless we find some common type emulsifier agent that disperses it into micro emulsion not to make dotted negatives. I became thinking maybe lecithin can work.
 
Last edited:

relistan

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
1,324
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Format
Multi Format
I doubt quercetin solubility too with minimum of 100ml ethanol should be possible but then mixed with water it will probably precipitate. Unless we find some common type emulsifier agent that disperses it into micro emulsion not to make dotted negatives. I became thinking maybe lecithin can work.
One early result from testing with just quercetin and ascorbic acid is here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...ops-like-pyrogallol.82705/page-4#post-2635606

Water by itself will develop a useable amount of quercetin for a single roll. But you need it to be saturated.
 

Pentacon_777

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
12
Location
Finland
Format
35mm
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom