deja vu all over again....starting to think I may have tested ginkgo before in earlier experiments 5 years ago...gotta find my old notes/negatives
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The work thus far is mainly a recapitulation of the work by Kendall (the Kendall formula for defining developers) and later the work of Pels who modified the work of Kendall. This was later put into a more rigorous form by Umberger. Using the combined methodologies, one can virtually predict what chemicals can develop and how good they work. In fact, the work above shows how heating sugars with base, then acid will form useful developing agents when used in the proper alkaline medium.
I knew it would take me a while to find this, as it is old work. See Haist, V1 P163 ff.
PE
I knew it would take me a while to find this, as it is old work. See Haist, V1 P163 ff.
PE
thank you!
not sure when I can get my hands on the Haist book, but just adding kendall & Pelz to my google searches has stirred up a lot of interesting intormation.
not sure when I can get my hands on the Haist book, but just adding kendall & Pelz to my google searches has stirred up a lot of interesting intormation.
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An easy book to find (look in abebooks.com) is "Photographic Processing Chemistry" by Mason, 2nd ed 1974. He describes Kendall's and Pelz's rules on page 16, followed by many pages describing various classes of developers. It's interesting reading. He notes that by introducing Phenidone, Kendall "broke his own rule on the structure of developing agents", and that other compounds also require Pelz' extension.
Mark Overton
thanks...
both of these books seem kinda expensive ( Haist was up to $1,000!!....although his own website had it for $200)...so I think I'll try libraries first
both of these books seem kinda expensive ( Haist was up to $1,000!!....although his own website had it for $200)...so I think I'll try libraries first
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Well, the extension by Umberger fixed the exceptions according to Haist. And the book set (2 volumes) is available from Grant for about $200.
PE
PE
I shouldn't be surprised that so far the best info on the kendall-Pelz rule I've found so far was posted right here on APUG...quoted from Mason's book:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
when I started all this tinkering...I just thought I'd be tossing random things in the blender to see if they'd work....vitamin C, mint from the garden, the neighbor's cat, etc....and now I'm starting to learn some actual science
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
when I started all this tinkering...I just thought I'd be tossing random things in the blender to see if they'd work....vitamin C, mint from the garden, the neighbor's cat, etc....and now I'm starting to learn some actual science
still not sure I fully understand how to use the K-P rules yet....
but I'm wondering if it implies that tryptophan and vitamin E could be superadditive since one contains nitrogen and the other doesn't according to this part of the above link:
" While not part of the KP rule, for any two developing agents to exhibit superadditivity one must be of group (a) and the other from group (b) or group (d). Examples of superadditive mixtures are hydroquinone and Metol and hydroquinone and phenidone.
Taken from Mason "Photographic Processing Chemistry." "
but I'm wondering if it implies that tryptophan and vitamin E could be superadditive since one contains nitrogen and the other doesn't according to this part of the above link:
" While not part of the KP rule, for any two developing agents to exhibit superadditivity one must be of group (a) and the other from group (b) or group (d). Examples of superadditive mixtures are hydroquinone and Metol and hydroquinone and phenidone.
Taken from Mason "Photographic Processing Chemistry." "
Tryptophan and vit. E?? Turkey and wheat germ developer??
yup...both worked when I tried them...kinda on the weak side, but they worked
just tossed a red onion and several shallot in the cuisinart for a one-on-one onion competition
the onion & shallot goop is now soaking in two separate alcohol/water baths awaiting their fate
Chicken noodle soup. It is good for anything!
Actually though, the KP rules + the Umberger rule together predict that sugars are developers and there is an extensive explanation in Haist that goes far beyond what Mason says. Haist also includes many additional references to substantiate his comments.
PE
Actually though, the KP rules + the Umberger rule together predict that sugars are developers and there is an extensive explanation in Haist that goes far beyond what Mason says. Haist also includes many additional references to substantiate his comments.
PE
I need that knowledge-providing helmet that Dr McCoy used in the "Spock's Brain" episode of Star Trek to boost my knowledge of chemistry a bit so I can fully make use of all this
so is the Umberger the rule about predicting which developers are superadditive with each other?
so is the Umberger the rule about predicting which developers are superadditive with each other?
PE....you do realize, of course, now I'm tempted to dunk my film in chicken noodle soup...
but a quick peek at the ingredients makes me think it would just be a greasy mess like the McDonald's french fries...but it would be amusing
but a quick peek at the ingredients makes me think it would just be a greasy mess like the McDonald's french fries...but it would be amusing
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You skim the soup, or chill it and remove the solid fat and then reheat.
As for the rules, IDK if any of them predict superadditivity, but Haist does give some ratios and he expresses some thoughts on the matter of what should work and what should not. It is related to adsorption to the grains due to a negative charge.
This is spread out over a dozen or more references and covers at least 25 - 50 pages if not more. You appear to be doing by T&E what others have done, and Haist and Mason have reported in their respective books.
PE
As for the rules, IDK if any of them predict superadditivity, but Haist does give some ratios and he expresses some thoughts on the matter of what should work and what should not. It is related to adsorption to the grains due to a negative charge.
This is spread out over a dozen or more references and covers at least 25 - 50 pages if not more. You appear to be doing by T&E what others have done, and Haist and Mason have reported in their respective books.
PE
yes....I like T&E...because you can start knowing nothing and automatically learn a few things....but now that I'm into it this far I'd love to get a look at everything you mentioned
success!...checked my local libray website...and several Univ libraries in the are have Haist...so I'm gonna try to get it on interlibrary loan
OK...back to Vitamin E...but with phenidone added this time
500 ml 70% isopropyl alcohol
100 ml water
0.1 g phenidone
added 2 tbsp sod. carb. but most didn't dissolve -- that's why I added the extra 100ml water ( ph went from 9.5 to 11 after I did that )
90 400 IU vitamin E gelcaps --- ( not all of the goop made it into the developer )
Tri-X
gonna develop for 45 minutes
500 ml 70% isopropyl alcohol
100 ml water
0.1 g phenidone
added 2 tbsp sod. carb. but most didn't dissolve -- that's why I added the extra 100ml water ( ph went from 9.5 to 11 after I did that )
90 400 IU vitamin E gelcaps --- ( not all of the goop made it into the developer )
Tri-X
gonna develop for 45 minutes
Vit E + Phenidone worked great...much better than vit E alone
don't really see any fog....negatives could use more density...but still not too shabby except the oily layer on everything
doing a comparison run with just phenidone makes sense...but I can't REALLY make it the same since the E pills have soybean oil & glycerin...and I wonder if the oily stuff forms a layer that hinders chemicals from getting in and out of the emulsion & making a good comparison difficult?
don't really see any fog....negatives could use more density...but still not too shabby except the oily layer on everything
doing a comparison run with just phenidone makes sense...but I can't REALLY make it the same since the E pills have soybean oil & glycerin...and I wonder if the oily stuff forms a layer that hinders chemicals from getting in and out of the emulsion & making a good comparison difficult?
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DarkroomExperimente, have you tried any of the grains? And maybe grain grasses eg wheatgrass? And I'm also wondering whether anyone has tried eucalyptus leaves. Here in Oz they're used as an ingredient in some cough lozenges, so I guess that counts as "edible," (and koalas eat them exclusively).
haven't tried grains or eucalyptus...a quick peek at wikipedia doesn't mention anything developerish about eucalyptus oil
re: oil...the Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin...so it comes mixed with soybean oil...which apparently a drying oil -- like the oil used in oil paint..>SO it's important to remove before it hardens...although perhaps it'll protect the negative whe it hardens?...who knows...I used an alcohol-soaked sponge to clean some of the oil off...still drying so not sure how well it worked...although I clearly got some oil off & it didn't seem to scratch the negative horribly
re: oil...the Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin...so it comes mixed with soybean oil...which apparently a drying oil -- like the oil used in oil paint..>SO it's important to remove before it hardens...although perhaps it'll protect the negative whe it hardens?...who knows...I used an alcohol-soaked sponge to clean some of the oil off...still drying so not sure how well it worked...although I clearly got some oil off & it didn't seem to scratch the negative horribly
Maybe Dr. Bronner's?
DBP -- today is the first time I used the small scale you gave me...easily measured 1/10 of a gram....could probably interpolate and go even lower
Cool. Working on the next Roger box.
Red Onion Mystery
testing the red onion developer....and I noticed as I was about to pour it into the tank...it looks as if there are two layers of liquids in there....like oil and water...
I used alcohol & water + ground up onion...but I'd expect water & alcohol to mix fine....
anybody have an explanation?
testing the red onion developer....and I noticed as I was about to pour it into the tank...it looks as if there are two layers of liquids in there....like oil and water...
I used alcohol & water + ground up onion...but I'd expect water & alcohol to mix fine....
anybody have an explanation?
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