Eco Friendlier: Ascorbic Acid Developers + Caffenol etc.

[MattKing]

One of the big advantages of some of the Pyro alternatives was their hardening effect on older emulsions, which were inherently more prone to damage than anything remotely modern.
I point this out because it is important to understand that developers and films and techniques and cameras and lens technologies don't exist in a vacuum - they tend to be created in response to the what else is happening at the time.
By the way, I'm willing to bet that X-Tol is giving you tremendous resolution. What you probably are seeing is less acutance, and acutance has very little to do with resolution.

 

[JWMster]

John:

Okay... if you REALLY want to know the scoop... here it is:

Gosh.... can't say "how much". Mostly I develop a LOT. Haven't since we packed up and moved last year 'cause we had to pack up 25 years of stuff, move out, remodel, and only got into the house in August... settled and we're just getting back to daily normal life now. And then there's the day job. But generally, I tend to keep a 5 Liter tank of B&W developer close to full and a set of unmixed as well as mixed C41 in the fridge. Not there yet in the new place, but getting there soon. Have only traded for the LF camera during the move process and disposition of my stuff. It was there. I picked it up. Haven't shot a lick yet or even loaded my first film holder. But just before we bought the new home, we went to France, I shot 33 rolls of MF Portra 400 and developed them in a mad rush. Haven't printed, but did most of the post.

So that's where I am. I've been shooting 35mm in the meantime and some digital (like tonight where we had a Christmas light parade on the local sail boats). But I'm eager to do some creative stuff again.

I bought some HDPE Neoprene bottles (US Plastics) to increase the keeping qualities of my chemicals and this has worked, but I also kind of gave up on replenishment using a Jobo (except C41 where I do re-use as directed). Omer Hecht at Catlabs told me a Jobo was just going to aerate the heck out of my XTOL and replenishment wasn't likely going to work. At least not at the rate Kodak recommends. I did read someone here who has, but he's using about double the Kodak recommended replenisher quantity... which makes sense.FWIW Bergger's Berspeed is actually made by Moersch and I think it is very close to one of the Acufine developer (not Diafine) in terms of its high accutance, high speed and fine grain characteristics. I had used a lot of Perceptol, but then decided I wanted to settle on using Delta 400 at box speed and so moved to XTOL-R and after a fail or two, moved on to ID-11 because of the literature of one Jobo user in particular helped me get my process down. ID-11 is pretty standard. Tried Berspeed on recommendation from CatLabs, and was VERY impressed. Spur-HDX is something that has some appeal, too, and I've checked with the company and they sent me their data on use with a Jobo...but then I've been eager to give Caffenol a shot because of Steve Shaub's notes and recommendations based on his own work. Spur HDX is a bit expensive I think, and I haven't used it, but it looks worthwhile. Also, the Berspeed ain't the most fish friendly and neither is the Accufine.

FWIW, I don't use a whole 5L of B&W chemistry in 2 or 3 months, but I'll get quite far into it. I like to max out my Jobo's 2500 tanks and that means 600 ML with 4 MF films on 2 reels. So as a film shooter, I don't have a lot of deactivation issues. And I will just throw it out to be on the safe side. I think there are lots of folks who've decided it's just more reliable to use one-shot. The attraction of XTOL-R isn't the cost savings but the supposed "better" tonality and sharpness. Well.... I'm not sure that's not subjective or not something you can't deal with to some extent in post production. But I believe the folks who find it works from them are right... for the way they use it or they wouldn't bother. I didn't have the patience at that time to try to solve all teh issues, and once I tried Berspeed, didn't feel it necessary.

So Caffenol. I've been doing the research and like I said, found a LF guy - "Bo" who's using mostly CH-rs and CL versions, and doing nice work. I don't think my efforts will prove a diversion, but if I fail...they surely could be. But that's not the intent. Never is in fact. But at some point you sometimes do make decisions. And there are costs of continuing versus redirecting, and each of us may choose differently at different times.

I've just gotten close to the point where I can almost begin to fire up the Jobo again. I've ordered the Potassium Bromide, I've got the Ascorbic Acid and the Instant Coffee, and the Sodium Carbonate.. and some other chems. Seemed worth avoiding the commercial products and the unknown byproducts if you can, and then purify the process as much as possible. I am OCD enough to want to be fairly precise for whatever that's worth!!!! (which may not be much). I've even dug out the 500 gram electric scale I bought some years ago but haven't used. Yes, I had to clean the contacts with a file and some contact cleaner, but it's working fine. I even have a PH meter for whatever that's going to do. The high tech lab gear(LOL) costs maybe $10 for the scale and another $10 for the PH meter. IF I fail, it won't be lack of wanting to do it right. I've even willing to go back to manual inversions, to give semi-stand a shot (CL) and see if it can deliver. I want to do some side-by-side and yes, I'll even do some testing to see whether there's any fine tuning needed on times and exposre, etc.

But I"m foolishly confident this can work and work well. I understand many think it's a dead end, and at times, Frankly, I wonder that myself. But if it DOES work and can be reasonably reliable, why not save the fishes? Actually here, it's more like the blue crabs... and oysters... and they're all of 100 yards away. Naval Academy is only a 5 minute walk from here. And this is a great place to take pictures.... very target rich all the time....and I'll be doing a lot of color I know. But I do love B&W... it's my first love from my childhood. Actually found some shots I had enlarged of my folks when we went to Canada, Hallifax and the Bay of Fundy. They were young... so yes, I've been at this a long time. But I've never done wet darkroom stuff.... 'casue this boy was going to be a film maker... and developed double super 8 film at home (super 16 back then), split it and all. It was cool, but life went in a different direction, and it kicked around and ultimately became a hobby....and recently (10 years ago) admitted that stills might just be a place a fellow could get creative... even in a digital age where it can seem antiseptic. And up until then, stills to me weren't more than candids and travel so much. So I suppose like many, digital led me back to film... so I could rediscover B&W 'cause "...a Leica Monochrome was too expensive". And that's a joke now 'cause I think in the end, after you collect and shoot all sorts of stuff, the Monochrome would have simply run all those $'s into one camera and one system... and probably ended up cheaper. Ah.... but that's my story. Maybe off-beat and even full of a lot dead ends, but maybe that's my thing? Our careers have direction and trajectory even.... which means with a hobby we have a bit more of the luxury to play at things....'cause we want to, and can afford to have the patience with processes no professional would put up with if he didn't have to. But sometimes.... you do. And for every time I think someone's crazy or there's something I say on first blush..."I'm never doing that...." maybe it's the kid in me that ends up... heck, that's exactly what I'm doing.

And I've had a lot more fun this way. And I keep learning. And I do want to be responsible. I dispose my fixer at the County Hazmat dump. I'd like to use safe chemistry. Don't have to, likely. But doing my part.... if the results work... it's what I should try to do. Does keep the wife happy.... and that's a good thing. And so here we are. I've got some stuff going on.... Christmas party, Christmas... grand daughter's birth.... all the usual stuff. But we're going to shoehorn this thing in there somehow. I have to hang a curtain across my film changing room (basement bath), and I have to hang my film hangers in the handy new enclosed $10 6-foot tall shoe rack I'm using to dry film dust free in the new place....( I don't have a basement shower anymore).... so there are small things. But as soon as my better half turns me loose.... it's going to happen. Days, maybe two or three weeks. Tops.

Let you know when I get something.

Best to you John and all of this group for the holidays ahead... whichever ones we celebrate...whether separate from each other or not... fact is, we're all in this thing together I think, and that's fine. Make yours a good one!

Skip

 

[mshchem]

One huge issue for the occasional user is storage of chemistry. Coffee, I store in the kitchen cupboard.
To make 5 liters of XTOL I get out my variable speed lab propeller mixer, ring stand, my 5 L beaker, and over a gallon of demineralized water, mix carefully, usually about 10 minutes if I don't for a "sandbar" of sulfite in the bottom of the beaker. Then start decanting into absolutely full, 1000, 500, 250, and 125 mL bottles. Then clean up, label all the bottles and put on a shelf in the darkroom. If you don't have the space, and the need, don't create a mess you will end up pouring down the drain. I love mixing chemistry, but I suspect I'm an exception, otherwise there wouldn't be so many pre-mixed products that are easy to use.

 

[mshchem]

Well with this discussion. I received my copy, 2nd edition of the Film Developer Cookbook, terrific book, up to date, filled with fact, not Internet legend. Troop and Ancell . Buy it. I suspect this could be a hard to find book down the road. It's so informative, there's some formulas, but a lot of solid information from past interviews and research. For the person that doesn't have access to the old journals etc, which pretty much includes most of us, this is a excellent reference book.

 

[JWMster]

Not a dissimilar process here. My 5L for developer goes into 5 - 1L bottles. I use distilled water almost exclusively for mixes. I also have 500ML and 250ML bottles to help minimize the air as the solutions fall. Nice that all these seal tight and can be shaken to dissolve the powder. Sooooo... maybe APUG/PHOTRIO folks are an exception, but collectively as a group, I think most are pretty careful. to have a repeatable solution of chemicals.

I have the John Finch book (7th edition) and the Anchell book (4th edition). Both are e-books. For me, a "How to" or "Tech" or "History" book is an e-book, a pleasure read...usually better as an analog book with real covers, pages, etc. Realize this makes me a luddite in some ways. Frankly, forgot I had the Anchell book... a problem of ebooks.

 

[titrisol]

For reference.

Found the article I was referring to:
Shuterbug 2003-09 by Roger K Bunting, "coffe, tea or vitamin c" and is still available online
https://www.shutterbug.com/content/coffee-tea-or-vitamin-cbrkitchen-chemistry-darkroom

and the one you referred to:
Darkroom & Creative camera techniques, 1995 Sept/Oct. "That Last Cup of Coffe" by 1995 RIT graduating class (not available online, I have a hard copy so if anyone wants a pdf let me know)

The Technical Photographic Chemistry Class at RIT in 1995 led by Dr. Scott Williams developed a method of developing photographic film using standard household items. They tested mixtures of tea and coffee combined with agents to balance the pH and successfully made printable images for exposed film. At the time they did not call it "Caffenol", but the methods they developed later became commonly called Caffenol.

 

[bluechromis]

bluechromis: Nice shot. You've posted a lot on different developers.Haven't seen much on PG110B elsewhere - the Jay DeFehr of Pyro 510 fame. Mytol... the shot in your Flickr group is a bit heavy on grain... but that may not be indicative so much of the developer as the film? PC-TEA I'll have to look into as well. Isn't there a glycol problem? as in how, where, etc.?

Thanks for your comment. I am not sure which shot on my Flickr group to which you are referring. PC-TEA is often compared to XTOL and said to have a bit less film speed and a bit courser grain. But this needs to be put in perspective that Kodak rates XTOL at the top or close to top of their developers in fine grain, film speed and acutance. There are few developers of any kind that can match that in technical terms. I would say that PC-TEA does have courser grain than XTOL but nowhere as course as that of Rodinal or FX-37. In my opinion the reason to use PC-TEA is the intangible unique look it has which is a different than XTOL as well its shelf life and its remarkable simplicity of only three ingredients. With PG110B the jury is still out but I get the impression it may have finer grain than PC-TEA.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jay_defehr/albums/72157636108414643

Re: question about glycol. If the question is about where to obtain Glycol, in the U.S. it, as well as TEA, it can be purchased from several sellers of bulk chemicals, The Chemistry Store, Photographers Formulary and others. Some people report that they have used glycol based eco-friendly auto anti-freeze. I am not sure where to get it in other regions but I don't get the impression that it is terribly difficult to find as it has a number of uses. The bigger problem is with TEA (Triethanolamine) because some European countries have banned its sale for fear that terrorists may use it to formulate mustard gas. If one is seeking especially fine grain in a home mixed eco-friendly developer there is Instant Mytol formulated by Jordan which is a close clone of Xtol and uses materials that are a bit easier to find than regular Mytol. But Is there much benefit to this approach when one can get a commercial clone of Xtol, Fomadon Excel, in packets to mix up just one liter of stock? There is a bit of cost saving with homemade materials, but it may not be worth the trouble for some people. On the plus side, getting set up to do home-mixed chemistry in general opens the door to a vast variety not only of developers, but also toners and other materials some of which cannot be purchased commercially.

 

[jim appleyard]

Her's a list by Pat Gainer of Vit. C devs: https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/VitC/vitc.html

There's also E-76 from Darkroom cookbook.

 

[JWMster]

Jim: Thanks for that link. I've seen plenty make reference to it. Did some closer reading, and I wonder whether anyone's using Pat Gainer's formulas? I like the photo in the article btw, so there's more than just a passing thought to give it a whirl down the road. I wonder though that folks these days who continue to shoot film may be less adventurous in their developers and more inclined to use package products? Reason I say this is that most (many?) of these formula discussions seem to be almost 10 years or more old and less frequent since.That's a pure conjecture based on anecdotal evidence ...looking only at the few threads I've followed. Makes me wonder whether the juice is worth the squeeze? - Skip

 

[removedacct3]

... I wonder whether anyone's using Pat Gainer's formulas? ...

I do.

I think PC-Glycol was devised by Pat Gainer and I am using it when pushing HP5 to 1600 with great results. It might be not everyone's cup of tea, but I like the tonality, the grain and the sharpness it gives in medium format. And although it is not a developer of Pat, I am using a slightly modified version of Hypercat for FP4 at 80 ASA and HP5 at 250 ASA. From what I know, the man who came up with Hypercat (Jay DeFehr) looked at Pat Gainer's formulas (PC-Glycol and PC-TEA) as a starting point. Hypercat is a staining developer that uses ascorbic acid as one of its developing agents.

 

[JWMster]

So yesterday I ran 2 batches of Caffenol-CMrs and got skunked. Not sure the precise cause... as there were a lot of variables given I processed some 35mm film, and MF has been my main stay for the last 2 years. So the bulk film loaded cartridges could have experienced a lot of malarkey between potential loading issues, storage issues, and just sitting around. Grabbed 2 Delta 400 commercial loaded film canisters that I'd shot the other day and processed those this morning. I also worried about the age of my fixer, so I switched to a new bottle of TF-5.

This time I also mixed the Caffenol using hot water from a "hot water kettle". Aimed for 120 degrees F but it was probably warmer. Stuff mixed up like a charm. MUCH less foam than I'd had before. Using a Jobo small reel tank 1520 with a target of 500ML, I mixed 100ML with the Sodium Carbonate; 100ML with the Ascorbic Acid; 200ML with the Coffee, and then let everything dissolve for a while. Mixed the coffee INTO the sodium and let it bubble out a bit, too.Stirred mildly, then poured the Ascorbic Acid solution into it as well. That DID create a little bubbling, but by the time the solution had cooled to 20 degrees centigrade, all the bubbles were gone. Mixed up the 3:1 TF-5 in the meantime. Cleaned up a lot of containers (must spend as much time cleaning as I do developing!), and when these were ready to use, I poured the Caffenol into a Jobo bottle; filled a 2nd with water for STOP; filled a 3rd bottle with FIXER and a 4th with Pre-Wash. I also have my wash water handy at temp. Reset the JOBO timer for the time, and then set up and let'er rip.

I have images drying. Scanning... well, I have some new equipment from Negative Solutions coming and when that happens, I'll fire up the Nikon D750 and let'er rip, too. And will post to my Flickr group if there's anything in the test images worthwhile.... which I'm not really planning on 'cause these were TEST images. As there aren't a lot of folks running caffenol in a Jobo, it will be interesting to see the results.

 

[fs999]

I mixed 100ML with the Sodium Carbonate; 100ML with the Ascorbic Acid; 200ML with the Coffee

So you prepared 400 ml Caffenol, not 500 ml

Mixed the coffee INTO the sodium and let it bubble out a bit, too.Stirred mildly, then poured the Ascorbic Acid solution into it as well.

I would add ascorbic acid in sodium carbonate and add the coffee at last... So the bubbles don't make the coffee foam...

 

[JWMster]

Thanks for the feedback. Left out the "water to make" 500 ML. All chems were sized on 500 ML. Failures before might have had something to do with adding the Sodium and Ascorbic Acid together first, but likely not. In any case, another blog had someone adding in this order and had good results, so I did it. Refinements come AFTER success. Will try your order using the mix technique above and see if there's a difference. FWIW I didn't have many bubbles to speak of. What NOT to do from my failures? Dissolve through over energetic stirring resulted in foam... not just bubbles. And clearly inadequate dissolution. Hot water cured that in spades and meant only a small amount of stirring to break up the crystals.

Have to get my scanner going to know my level of satisfaction with the images. For now, I'm on STANDBY.

Subsequent experiments needed are: 1) Semi-Stand development, 2) Film Pushing; 3) N+1 / N-1 development and so forth. Just the normal stuff. Good news is that JOBO works. NEXT news is that upgrading the images produced from here is the path ahead.

Thanks!

 

[fs999]

The best for finer grain and push/pull is full stand.

Did you already read the caffenol cookbook ? It's here : https://www.caffenol-cookbook.com/.

 

[JWMster]

Yes read the Caffenol Cookbook and most of the sites. ALso have read 2 books on development - esp. Anchill's. I've been developing for some time... that's not the issue, but I'm curious. Always looking for highest quality with the least amount of bother... and I'm not keen on 1 hour development, so curios about the options. Thanks!