Eco Friendlier: Ascorbic Acid Developers + Caffenol etc.

[JWMster]

Okay a little research. Instant Coffee typically has Robusta beans because the rubber taste is something people on the go need and can afford. Typically Robusta beans come from Asia, and because of the burnt rubber taste, costs less. Nescafe has 100% Robusta in their Classic Instant coffee. So a good side-by-side test between the Robusta vs. Arabica theory would compare 100% of Arabica (like the Davidoff which is anything but cheap) vs. the Necafe Classic. Not sure it's really 100% 'cause it only says "made from" rather than "made 100% from...". To get the 100%, you would need to order up some coffee that's not instant. The brand DEATH WISH is rated as THE world's strongest coffee made 100% or so from Robusta. There are other "jolts" out there, but I'm interested... not looking to justify a more expensive route, but worth a roll to see whether the there's anything to the theory of Robusta vs. Arabica and vice versa. Also curious whether there's any difference between how you make it (rather than the ingredients themselves ): Instant vs. Brewed. Any data out there?

FWIW, neither Maxwell House nor Folger's will share much on the web about their blend of beans. So it's hard to make the case for using them without recommendation from others. I'm less interested in experiments and more in just getting images.

 

[JWMster]

The CL formula has such fine grain, I'm going to have to try that and the CM/CH versions pretty quick. Stand development... I've never done. Assume that when standing, we want the reels completely submerged, right?

 

[removed account4]

That's not true for CL and CLCN, there must be exact measurement (0.1 gr. precision), because they are weaker.
You're right to have fun

i guess? i don't use any of those formulas listed or that people have created, i've been using caffenol for probably IDK since 2006 and found no need to do anything but tablespoons/teaspoons and a squirt of print developer. its fine grained enough for my needs, it can be used to push or pull development, develop prints, stand, replenish, rotary process as well as split process. its great that some have come up with crazy precise formulas to the microgram, but i've never had the use for that, im glad you have and you've posted your formulas and research ! thanks !
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skip
not sure where you did your research about coffee but they grow robusta beans in a lot of places besides asia, unless you are referring to asia the 19th century way, and including the middle/near east and north africa as part of asia. from what i can remember reading the last few years, vietnam is the largest exporter of coffee in the world, and they grow robusta as well as arabica coffee. there are countless places that grow coffee, but they are typically found between the tropics of cancer and capricorn. ( that will probably change with the effects of global climate change.) FWIW, i have sumatran robusta beans that i bought, roast and use, i drink them sometimes and they don't taste like rubber, not sure where you get that description from. i have made it in an ibriki as well as espresso machine and perk, never tasted anything but body. robusta is a different strain of coffee that sometimes is not shade grown and because of high caffic acid and other chemical components found in the robusta plants, they are less likely to get something that destroys crops called "coffee rust". it might actually be the robusta plants that save the world coffee industry because coffee rust is a problem that doesn't seem to go away. its bad enough the plants only have a productive life of i think its 7 years, to have your village's livelyhood destroyed by a fungus. if you are interested in knowing more about coffee, look up ways it is processed, the different processing methods give different flavor profiles of the coffee. i've been drinking it ( good and bad ) for probably 40 years maybe more, even worked in the coffee industry for 3-3 1/2 years, i've never tasted coffee that tastes like rubber... dirt, yes, blueberries and floral tastes, yup, but never rubber..
good luck !

 

[JWMster]

jnantz: The "burnt rubber taste" is repeated in a lot of places. Robusta does come from a lot of places... all the beans do. But Robusta is repotred by Mr. Google as most common in Asia, Indonesia, IndoChina, etc. One source reports Vietnam is the largest producer of Robusta beans. A number report the same flavor comments:: http://mccoyshull.co.uk/the-difference-between-arabica-and-robusta-coffee/ and another https://enjoyjava.com/robusta-coffee/. More, but I'm not going to list. So I'm not making it up nor am I passing judgment but simply reporting what I find written. Now what's the most amazing part of this? How does anyone know what rubber tastes like? "My tongue bounced!" or "Oh... it's just like the rubbery spaghetti we had the other night. Clean up? You just throw it from the free throw line to the rim (of the sink)." I dunno.

So do you ever make your Caffenol with regular coffee brew rather than instant? Robusta beans seem like something you can get much easier in bean or ground form without ending up with a blend. Not sure it matters, but you never know.

 

[removed account4]

So do you ever make your Caffenol with regular coffee brew rather than instant? Robusta beans seem like something you can get much easier in bean or ground form without ending up with a blend. Not sure it matters, but you never know.

i haven't made caffenol with instant coffee in more than 10 years, i bought about 90# of coffee a bunch of years ago, and roast the beans myself in my driveway on a hot plate in a wok. i let them outgas, then i grid them, i brew them in a percolater and make the caffenol by eye. i don't measure with a scale, LOL i have more important things worry about. i'll let the kings of caffenol worry about that sort of stuff. if you've looked at the caffneol cookbook, i was one of the authors, and for between 10-15 years most every black and white image i have made has been made with that developer. you've probably read what i wrote there already. sorry for repeating myself
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regarding the burnt rubber commentary, not really sure what to say.
there is a lot of snobbism & hype about coffee. a lot of people who claim these things for whatever reasons say not so nice things about robusta coffee--->> whatever . some coffee shops cater to sophisticated clients and want to sell more expensive "exclusive coffees" are like the places you have linked to, they want to sell arabica coffee ... their arabica coffee . they don't say anything about beans-blends exclusively used in espresso machines having robusta beans in there, which i think is kind of funny. caffeine content is regulated by how much a coffee is roasted. if you have robusta beans and you cinnamon roast'em it will have huge caffeine and taste different than a dark / full city ( oils come out the 2nd time ) roast or an "espresso"/italian or french roast. cinnamon roasted arabica beans same thing. websites like to leave out important details to make suggestions and steer their clients to expensive arabica coffees...
i've had expensive arabica coffee, plenty of it, and hate to say it, but some tasted like crap ( i'm not talking Luwak or Black Ivory Coffee ). i had some the other day even that was supposedly soooo good! all of it from this exclusive boutique farm .. it was sour and gross, i've had the shop's espresso shots as well as drip coffee another exclusive shop across the street is even worse, tasted like paint thinner smells. Both situations could have been because they don't bother to clean their espresso and drip machines every night who knows, or maybe new employees and they have no idea how much coffee to make their drip or how to not over/under extract their espresso, all i know was it is money wasted and gross coffee. i even had exquisite arabica beans sent to me by a friend in south america (he's no slouch!) and told me it was the best coffee he had ever had, well, i'll just say sure wasn't the best coffee i have ever had ... .. maybe it was the whole experience of being where he was, having it every day the ways the locals have it, and the experience was delicious.
i could easily write on my café's website that arabica coffee from mexico, south america, africa and indonesia i had tasted terrible, was a bit more varnish than body, then talk about ficticious amounts of caffeine, maybe on a couple of coffee forums and populate the rest of the site with troll/bot user names and glad-hand+hype to steer interest coffee i sell. specifically sumatra, where delightful robusta beans are grown. they are processed with a huller and fermented ( wet method ) ... roasted to perfection with exquisitly light with earthy, floral and nutty notes and develops a hell of a roll of film.
YMMV

 

[JWMster]

Jnantz (John?): Thanks. Appreciate it all. Yes, we can all be snobs about so many things. Even coffee, Caffenol recipes, etc. There's a line between fastidiousness about a getting a regular, repeatable process and obsession, but I'm not sure where we cross it. But often, we do. Like you say, we do have to remember to have fun.

 

[removed account4]

Jnantz (John?): Thanks. Appreciate it all. Yes, we can all be snobs about so many things. Even coffee, Caffenol recipes, etc. There's a line between fastidiousness about a getting a regular, repeatable process and obsession, but I'm not sure where we cross it. But often, we do. Like you say, we do have to remember to have fun.

as hulk hogan might say " rrrright on brother! "
fun is where its at

 

[abruzzi]

OR you can save cumulative spent FIXER and take a jug of it to the local (hazmat) dump 2 to 4 times a year.

this is a good idea, but check with your local waste disposal. Mine was very adamant that the jug was adequately labeled with the contents, and they much preferred factory bottles, because they trusted that more than a hand labeled bottle.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

ROK: Yes, wouldn't be nice if the caffeic acid were bottled so you could measure it out precisely?

Actually you can buy it from Merck. CAS is 331-39-5 / 1g goes for around 5€.

It is quite expensive, and as jnantz wrote, has been tried:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/caffeic-acid-fill-of-beans.115988/#post-1533665

 

[bluechromis]

I regularly use PC-TEA and Instant Mytol. I think they are stellar developers and have not found a film that that work poorly with. An advantage to PC-TEA and the glycol variant of Instant Mytol is that the the stock solution is made with an organic solvent that provides long shelf life. With the Inst. Mytol one adds the alkali when mixing working solution and PC-TEA you can just use the stock solution. With these you can get the shelf life more like HC-110 and Rodinal, but eco. friendly and arguably with abetter sharpness/grain/film speed tradeoff. What's not to like? PC-TEA gives great skin tones and outstanding acutance. It is slightly more grainy that XTOl, but not that much. Some films I wouldn't typically use it with would be Kodak & Ilford 3200 films in 35 mm because of grain. Because you mix them up they are cheap and they have decent shelf life so is easy to have both. I use Instant Mytol for fast 35 mm films and Foma 400 and often use PC-TEA for others. XTOL and many other developers have significant amounts of sulphite which has its pros and cons. The sulphite is a preservative and can also soften (replate?) grain in higher concentrations. But what if you have a fine grained film that doesn't need grain softening? People try to dilute developers to mitigate the grain softening. But you are still stuck with some sulphite. With PC-TEA one can entirely avoid the use of sulphite when is not needed. Pat Gainer claimed that ascorbate developers sans sulphite act as surface developer with benefits to image quality though I don't have proof that this is so. I have just begun experimenting with a similar recipe, PG110B (see link) which seems promising.

https://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/easy-film-developers

https://www.flickr.com/groups/1353646@N20/discuss/72157643345178354/

The Grill Next Door

• bluechromis
• Jul 3, 2019
• 6

This is a Graham "Sharknose" from around 1939.

 

[Alan Johnson]

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/diafine-revisited-ascorbate-version.78123
There were also experiments with 2-bath ascorbate developers.
Since the only developer finding its way to the environment was that carried over on the film surface from bath A, this has to be close to zero polluting.
IDK of anyone actually using it apart from testing.

 

[JWMster]

bluechromis: Nice shot. You've posted a lot on different developers.Haven't seen much on PG110B elsewhere - the Jay DeFehr of Pyro 510 fame. Mytol... the shot in your Flickr group is a bit heavy on grain... but that may not be indicative so much of the developer as the film? PC-TEA I'll have to look into as well. Isn't there a glycol problem? as in how, where, etc.?

 

[mshchem]

If "Eco-friendly" is the goal, it's hard for me to think of a lower impact than a replenished conventional developer. I use XTOL, I think it's great stuff. I know people love Coffee and vitamin C formulas. But it's hard for me to imagine that growing, roasting, brewing, transportation etc. is better for the environment than 70mL of XTOL, most of which simply replaces what is lost in wetting the film.
I ran a 1 gallon bottle of HC-110 dilution B for a couple years. Never failed me. Easiest setup ever.

 

[bnxvs]

I regularly use PC-TEA and Instant Mytol. I think they are stellar developers and have not found a film that that work poorly with. An advantage to PC-TEA and the glycol variant of Instant Mytol is that the the stock solution is made with an organic solvent that provides long shelf life. With the Inst. Mytol one adds the alkali when mixing working solution and PC-TEA you can just use the stock solution. With these you can get the shelf life more like HC-110 and Rodinal, but eco. friendly and arguably with abetter sharpness/grain/film speed tradeoff. What's not to like? PC-TEA gives great skin tones and outstanding acutance. It is slightly more grainy that XTOl, but not that much. Some films I wouldn't typically use it with would be Kodak & Ilford 3200 films in 35 mm because of grain. Because you mix them up they are cheap and they have decent shelf life so is easy to have both. I use Instant Mytol for fast 35 mm films and Foma 400 and often use PC-TEA for others. XTOL and many other developers have significant amounts of sulphite which has its pros and cons. The sulphite is a preservative and can also soften (replate?) grain in higher concentrations. But what if you have a fine grained film that doesn't need grain softening? People try to dilute developers to mitigate the grain softening. But you are still stuck with some sulphite. With PC-TEA one can entirely avoid the use of sulphite when is not needed. Pat Gainer claimed that ascorbate developers sans sulphite act as surface developer with benefits to image quality though I don't have proof that this is so. I have just begun experimenting with a similar recipe, PG110B (see link) which seems promising.

https://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/easy-film-developers

https://www.flickr.com/groups/1353646@N20/discuss/72157643345178354/

The Grill Next Door

• bluechromis
• Jul 3, 2019
• 6

This is a Graham "Sharknose" from around 1939.

PC-TEA is a very good developer. But, unfortunately, in many countries TEA forbid sale and shipment now. This is because TEA is the raw material for the production of mustard gas (poisonous gas). Some time ago I tried to find an alternative to TEA. There are organic liquids with a high level of alkalinity, but they are extremely difficult to find in retail.

 

[baachitraka]

After all experiments (working ones) I settled with Rodinal (for long shelf life) and Atomal (may switch to D-76).

PC-TEA is one simple developer that can hold highlights very well.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pc-tea-questions.137075/#post-1797289

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pc-tea-questions.137075/#post-1801987

But that damn thing is highly viscous and may need to warm it a bit before pouring into syringe or equivalent measuring tubes.

Don't ask me how I mix them.

Honestly I don't want to home make any developers except mixing per-packed developers.

* But when there is nothing available, I may stick with DK76b.

Thats,

- 2g of Metol
- 2g of Sodium Metaborate
- 100g of Sodium Sulphite

long lasting...longer than D-76 and it works.

 

[bluechromis]

PC-TEA is a very good developer. But, unfortunately, in many countries TEA forbid sale and shipment now. This is because TEA is the raw material for the production of mustard gas (poisonous gas). Some time ago I tried to find an alternative to TEA. There are organic liquids with a high level of alkalinity, but they are extremely difficult to find in retail.

In areas where TEA is unavailable there is the similar PC-Glycol or PG110B which use glycol as the solvent instead of TEA.

 

[JWMster]

bluechromis: If I recall, you were using PG110B with Xray or Microfilm (High Contrast stuff?) as a way of reducing contrast. Are you still using it? and are you satisfied with it in general use? I'm after reasonably fine grain... which Caffenol mostly seems to mean CL and stand development (though I've seen some good HCrs work). Suggestions based on your experience at this point?

 

[titrisol]

You are right, it was in the 90s, and it showed up in PoPPhoto as well.

And yes the cheaper instant coffee makes a better caffenol/Folgernol, many theories were floated but the results are undeniable
Same thing with toning cyanotypes, cheaper coffee makes darker images

My experience is : the cheaper the coffee, the better the Caffenol
The cheapest coffees use more Robusta than Arabica more expensive. Robusta has more caffeic acid (phenol) caffeine.
There is also a very active group on facebook where you can ask...

The Technical Photographic Chemistry Class at RIT in 1995 led by Dr. Scott Williams developed a method of developing photographic film using standard household items. They tested mixtures of tea and coffee combined with agents to balance the pH and successfully made printable images for exposed film. At the time they did not call it "Caffenol", but the methods they developed later became commonly called Caffenol.

 

[titrisol]

I came across this very good thread on the effects of photochemicals on the nvironment...
https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95912

 

[JWMster]

Thread increasingly reflects what is probably true, but my take is that IF caffenol can be used for reasonably similar results, why not give it a shot? IF the results don't stand up, then it's on to the next thing... maybe back to XTOL. But if Caffenol can turn out great results for what I want, then hey, why not?

 

[mshchem]

XTOL, pure water, full bottles. If you want to fool around go ahead. XTOL was the last real big development, in film developers, before digital destroyed the world. MHOFWIW (which ain't much )
Peace

 

[JWMster]

mschem: Sure. I'll give it whirl. Shaub's work suggests there's range in it that's worth a whirl. But I thought the last (and still) big thing was pyrochat / pyrogallo and all that.

 

[MattKing]

But I thought the last (and still) big thing was pyrochat / pyrogallo and all that.

The Pyro alternatives are OLD - with the modern versions merely being tweaks that make them suitable for things like rotary processing.
And Pyro alternatives aren't really appropriate for most commercial options.

 

[JWMster]

Yeah... I've read Barry Thornton's stuff on this, and see that some of Kodak's way old developers had pyro... so you're right. I forgot. I couldn't have begun to date all the developments though. So thanks for the "reminder" / correction. New is older than I think. The thing is, before I clicked with Bergger's Berspeed and the Jobo, my results were candidly.... spotty. I'm pretty sure a lot of it was me... and not the materials I used at the time. But I didn't find XTOL all that high resolution. And I've come to understand that the hybrid workflow through to inkjet printing doesn't really demand as much of the negative (according to many) as wet printing. I can only assume that's true to some extent, but a really good negative is still a good place to start. With post processing in Capture One and others, I simply haven't gotten into the "layers" for adjustments that I really should. And as I read it, this would be like satisfying yourself that you'll never dodge and burn a negative for darkroom printing... or Mr. Cibachrome (Clyde Butcher?) does with his prints. So I've a long ways to go. All I care about is a good negative to start.... not a negative that is the be all and end all (although who wouldn't like it?). I don't believe it's all in photoshop or similar, but a good negative can get a few tweaks for printing that make it a pleasure to the eye.

FWIW, I've seen folks making great work out of caffenol negatives. Not the vast majority who seem to do it on a lark, but the folks who aren't playing with the materials and rather simply trying for a good neg. That's where I like to think I"m headed. IF it fails, then I was playing. If it succeeds... we'll see.

 

[removed account4]

hi skip

how much film have you been processing, roll film, sheet film and how are you processing it ?
do you tend to have a lot of film to process at once?
what developer have you used to far ?

used the teaspoon/tablespoon caffenol yet ? or are you doing your research before you plunge in?

the problem i have found with most developers if you are only developing film once in a blue moon is that they deactivate. i have used ansco 130 for years
( yes i know its a paper developer ) because in its stock bottle all mixed up it lasts for like over a year, and often i don't have the time to develop film as soon as i have a roll.
its one of the reasons i gravitated towards caffenol too, when i was mixing it with cheep instant it was easy to mix up 1 shot and when i make a gallon at a time i can go for months
without using it and its still good.

YMMV

ps. with regards to waste disposal, i wouldn't believe anyone on the internet while most people mean well and are happy to tell you what they do ( especially if they have a anonymous user name ) unless they are familiar with one's local laws just smile and nod. what might be totally kosher and blessed by one place, might be forbidden someplace else, and when they have you tied to the chair with bare light bulb overhead " some guy on the internet told me" probably isn't gonna, as echo and the bunnymen would say "cut the mustard". i've read threads here and a few other places enough and talked to some people in person and some of the stuff i have heard .. didnt' sound too kosher to me ...