Eco Friendlier: Ascorbic Acid Developers + Caffenol etc.

JWMster · Nov 30, 2019

GIven we moved to an environmentally more sensitive locale, I'd like to give a trial to some of the more eco-friendly developers than my go-to Bergger Berspeed. Might have to yield on using the Jobo... which may work, too.

Curious whether anyone is using Caffenol for serious work? Usually it's pegged with "Have fun!" as opposed to "Happy shooting!" Maybe a lesson there? Have been reading but see very little discussion here on Photrio.

What about Patterson FX-50 (Anschell's book attempts to match it with FX-55)? THen there's D-23? I'm not sure how we're supposed to define "eco friendly", but guess I"d start with the ingredients of the main developer can safely be disposed down the drain. Do all fail here? Am I woefully out of date? Are ascorbic acid developers any "better" or sufficiently better to warrant a look? Seems like the bulk of Photrio uses pre-mixed developers: D-76, Xtol, Pyrocat-HD, etc and just deals with the other issues as needed. Am I misreading the messages inherent in an assumption of this character... and is it even close to the mark / fair?

Appreciate your insight, help, suggestions and guidance if you care to share in a slow moment. I've googled the site here but maybe haven't included the right key words. Thanks for your patience.

removed account4 · Nov 30, 2019

Hey Skip
I've been using caffenol c for all of my work for between 10 and 15 years ( except for client work). i don't have a jobo but i have used it in unicolor drums, stand, replenished 1 shot, hand tanks, shuffled in a tray too. i have to tell you that i don't typically use it straight up, but put about 15-20cc of dektol or ansco 130 in it to boost the contrast a little bit, cause like xtol it can sometimes yield a negative that to my eyes looks a little thin, so the print developer helps alleviate the thins. i've used it split using ansco or dektol 1:8 for 4 mins and caffenol c with a shot of whatever it is i have on hand for the remaining 4 mins ( agitate 1 min and 10 sec/min in the print dev and constantly in the caffenol ) and it works great. i typically say "have fun" because that is what photography is supposed to be, fun, otherwise whats the point. you might consider looking at the caffenol cookbook ( i was one of the contributors ) for some insights on mixing caffenol, and some of the blogs for addition recipes and trouble shooting. typically the problems people have are related to not having vit c, and not having washing soda. if you want some sumatran beans i'm more than happy to provide you with some to use for caffenol ( been roasting and using these beans for 10+ years ) they make great developer, but the down side is it isn't just mixing instant, you have to brew a pot of coffee.

have fun !
john

ps im not sure what eco friendly means i figure it is ingredients that you might find in your kitchen, like IDK coffee beans, baking soda and vitamins?

mshchem · Nov 30, 2019

Replenish, use an open tank, 2 bath fixer. Counter current wash.

Or just use XTOL in your Jobo. While you are watching the Jobo, have a really nice cup of coffee.

JWMster · Nov 30, 2019

John:
YES! I remember your formula from the same data and recognized the Ansco 130 instantly. I think it was Sumatranol or something, and so in the first line, you got me. Thanks for the encouragement.
And YES of course photography is supposed to be fun... but I can tell you, it's a lot more fun when your negatives come out the way you want... and in a way you can use than when they don't..Guess my interest is probably to see how well this can be tweaked with the usual ingredients... but I sure admire your consistency, and may find myself going down that road, too.

I'm after the best negatives for scanning, so I'm not sure what I'll end up with. I"ve read Steve Shaub commend the Caffenol-C for scanning. He also says there's a time for high ISO and another time for low ISO, but
otherwise, the soup's not that sensitive (am I reading that right?), so it sounds almost like you could process different films together with decent results... once you begin to get it down. From my reading, the Caffenol-CM and Caffenol-CH(rs/rsA) and even Caffenol-CL-CN (low speed film), but though stand development isn't something I've messed with before, Caffenol-CL(cs) for stand seems to have some pretty good practitioners too that give it some allure.

There are plenty of questions I have that aren't covered in the cookbook or the Q&A in the online posts I've found, but seem logical based on experience with commercial products. So if I may, I may want to message you with a question from time to time.

Ah... almost missed your question: Eco Friendly to me means something that doesn't have to or shouldn't have to go to the hazardous waste dump like Fixer. Better, it's a reasonably safe material like ascorbic acid. Maybe it shouldn't be hazardous to the marine environment, too. Those are the general things that come to my mind.
Maybe more should, but that's where I am at the moment. Thanks!

Patrick Robert James · Nov 30, 2019

Not to point out the obvious, but if you are scanning your negs you can develop them in practically anything. If you want to use an Eco-friendly developer, then scanning+Eco-friendly=Caffenol. Easy. You just need to figure out how long to develop for just like any other developer.

If you don't want to go down the instant coffee route, combining Phenidone with Vitamin C is an alternative. I haven't done that myself for film, but I did use to use a print developer for a couple years that was Phenidone/VitC. Worked fine. You need very little Phenidone/Dimezone in a developer.

The other alternative is to use highly dilute developers like Rodinal or Beutler's. They are one shot, but again, there is very little developing agent in Rodinal for example. You do a lot more damage to the environment with the drugs that pass through your system....

JWMster · Nov 30, 2019

Patrick: Yes. FX-55 is a referred to in Anschell's book as "Crawley's Ascorbic Developer" containing various Sodiums and (drum roll) Phenidone. So yes, exactly. That's the primary alternative and described as XTOL without the "early death syndrome". Beutler... is another option but not with a Jobo (per Tinsely's book on Jobo). So thank you for providing confirmation that this may prove a fruitful journey. Phenidone is 0.1 g per Liter. Wikipedia even lists it as an eco friendly developer (I just checked it).

And LOL, yes, (yiipes!) you're right about the "drugs that pass through my system". Who told you I was a geezer?

Thanks, Patrick, John and mschchem

Adrian Bacon · Dec 1, 2019

mshchem said:
Replenish, use an open tank, 2 bath fixer. Counter current wash.

Or just use XTOL in your Jobo. While you are watching the Jobo, have a really nice cup of coffee.

+1

XTOL is about as environmentally friendly as you'll get and it's generally very good results. And consistent.

etn · Dec 1, 2019

Adox has a Vitamine-C based paper developer, « Neutol Eco ». I use it for all my prints and am very pleased with the results.

JWMster · Dec 1, 2019

Adrian: Good suggestion, thanks! Tried XTOL-R and didn't get it dialed in, lots of XTOL death, etc.. Clearly I was too ambitious or not enough. Both? In discussion with Omer Hecht at CatLabs about Jobo and XTOL-R and my problems, I then went to ID-11, which was fine, but then tried Bergger Berspeed and it is amazing, and still my number one choice.

But with the move, and the hiatus of remodeling, I'm looking at everything again. And yes, so XTOL becomes possible again, and yes it is highly recommended. FX-55 is basically XTOL with reputedly better midtones from what I read and without the oxidation early-death syndrome. And once you open the box to consideration of home-mixing, just about everything seems to be a realistic possibility. Having tried Pyrocat, I liked the results, but can't say I got that dialed in either at that time (pre-Jobo), and I didn't care for the extra precautions requisite to proper safe handling. Maybe if I were more of a chemist I might be less intimidated?.

Story of my life: Everything I said I'd never do, I find eventually somehow is the one thing I need to do. And when I finally get around to doing it, it always ends up being amazing, and I wonder how I could have been so pigheaded. So I'm hard headed, too. Sometimes easy does it, but for me, but more commonly, it always seems to be the opposite: Nothing's ever easy or stays that way....'cause there's always more or better to be chased.

That said, I want to get this thing settled in due course, 'cause there's nothing sweeter and more productive than one camera, one film, one lens and one developer. We'll get back to that.

Thanks for the input and encouragement! from another guy who does hybrid. Appreciate your stopping by.

Anon Ymous · Dec 1, 2019

Crawley never claimed that FX-55 doesn't have the "sudden death" problem that ascorbate developers have. In fact, he specifically advised using freshly mixed developer and discarding it if unused after 36 hours.

JWMster · Dec 1, 2019

Yes that's right Anon. I read though that the A-mix - which is mostly variations of sodium - keeps forever. You dilute to working strength and throw in the the B-mix elements and you're off. And good for 24 hours max at that (36 by Crawley).
So there is something there. Minor inconvenience relative to simple dilute and start developing, but very minor.

Anon Ymous · Dec 1, 2019

@JWMster If you're going to mix FX-55, it would be convenient to prepare a 1% w/v solution of Phenidone in hot propylene glycol. It keeps very well and it's easier to measure a reasonably large volume of liquid, than weighing a very small quantity of powder.

removed account4 · Dec 1, 2019

hi skip
feel free to send me a message whenever you want. im not fluent in all the different permutations of the developer, like the ones you mentioned, to be honest i onlyuse sumatranol130 ( or D depending on if i have mixed in a130 or dektol ) so my insights might not be too useful in that respect. steve shaub is great, isnt' he ? couldn't agree more with his point of view. its a great all around developer once you figure out the times you are able to make negatives good to scan ( or contact print or enlarger ) . the blogs i mentioned have some folks that invented the different formulations ( with and without bromide, with and without salt &c &c ) im guessing if you have specifics about different films and different treatments they have either an email or a message board on their blog where the global citizens of caffenol might be able to suggest through their own person experiences ...
john

JWMster · Dec 1, 2019

Hey Anon: I read that, and it's a solid idea, Never tried this angle of mixing it myself, but you are very spot on about this. Thanks! Of course I'd not seen the hot propylene glycol version of this before, but only Rubbing Alcohol (which could evaporate). Same idea of course. Will have to look up the glycol option. Thanks!

Neal · Dec 1, 2019

An easy solution is to use the Eco-Pro products. The print developers don't last as long as dektol but it's not hard to work up a replenishment regimen.

Admittedly, you don't get the fun of mixing your own this way.

Adrian Bacon · Dec 1, 2019

JWMster said:
Adrian: Good suggestion, thanks! Tried XTOL-R and didn't get it dialed in, lots of XTOL death, etc.. Clearly I was too ambitious or not enough. Both? In discussion with Omer Hecht at CatLabs about Jobo and XTOL-R and my problems, I then went to ID-11, which was fine, but then tried Bergger Berspeed and it is amazing, and still my number one choice.

But with the move, and the hiatus of remodeling, I'm looking at everything again. And yes, so XTOL becomes possible again, and yes it is highly recommended. FX-55 is basically XTOL with reputedly better midtones from what I read and without the oxidation early-death syndrome. And once you open the box to consideration of home-mixing, just about everything seems to be a realistic possibility. Having tried Pyrocat, I liked the results, but can't say I got that dialed in either at that time (pre-Jobo), and I didn't care for the extra precautions requisite to proper safe handling. Maybe if I were more of a chemist I might be less intimidated?.

Story of my life: Everything I said I'd never do, I find eventually somehow is the one thing I need to do. And when I finally get around to doing it, it always ends up being amazing, and I wonder how I could have been so pigheaded. So I'm hard headed, too. Sometimes easy does it, but for me, but more commonly, it always seems to be the opposite: Nothing's ever easy or stays that way....'cause there's always more or better to be chased.

That said, I want to get this thing settled in due course, 'cause there's nothing sweeter and more productive than one camera, one film, one lens and one developer. We'll get back to that.

Thanks for the input and encouragement! from another guy who does hybrid. Appreciate your stopping by.

Sudden death with XTOL is pretty easy to avoid. Use distilled water when first mixing it up, store it so exposure to oxygen, light, and heat is minimized, and don’t expect to use a 5 liter batch for more than 6 months without adding new freshly mixed xtol to your stock at the 6 month mark or earlier.

Unless you almost never develop film, using ~1 Liter a month isn’t difficult to do. Even replenished at 70ml per roll, that’s 11-12 rolls a month. Non-replenished, at 1+1 dilution, you’re looking at ~150ml stock per roll. That’s only 30-35 rolls per 5 liters, or 5-6 rolls a month. If you’re using a jobo, unless you use the tiny 1 roll tank, you have to at least 240ml total solution volume (or more, depending on tank size). I always do 300ml in the 2 roll tank and 600ml in the 5 roll tank (2 roll + 3 roll extender) of replenished Xtol.

My working solution bottle is 2 liters (recently upsized from 1 liter), and I generally keep 10-15 liters of stock in a refillable wine bag in a box. It’s totally air free, and dispenses easily via the built in spigot. I keep D-76 and Dektol the same way, usually at least a couple of gallons of each. The bladders can hold 16 liters, so when I tank them up, I generally will fill them all the way up, then if I have any left over, it goes into my used print developer bottle that I use to “season” Ilford Multigrade, which I generally mix up as 1 part developer, one part used developer, then the rest distilled water. When I’m done, I pour the used developer into the bottle until it’s full, then dump the rest. Sometimes if I’m feeling adventurous, I’ll do one part MG, one part Dektol, one part XTOL, one part used paper developer, the rest water. Makes for some interesting prints.

JWMster · Dec 1, 2019

Adrian: You're nailing the likely culprit. I think for the most part I ran closer to 600ML in my 2500 tank which would have 2 reels and 4 films. Suggested replenishment scheme from Kodak simply wasn't aggressive enough (90ML if I recall) given the aeration in a Jobo..I've seen that like you suggest here, folks find that higher numbers work.
In my frustration, I moved on to another developer and moved back to one-shot working solutions. There will be a time when we come back to replenishment because I see folks doing it with a lot of different developers - not just XTOL and suggesting better results. Fairly, you nailed the other culprit in storage bottles and I junked all of those for some real PET quality chem and food containers.

Like your custom developer in the "adventurous" final sentence. I wonder at the use of paper developers in negative developing... but only 'cause I'm a short time with on three years at this (LOTS and LOTS of films, but a significant # were color... and C-41 seems far simpler compared to B&W). So will have to open my mind to thinking about this route. Thank you for all your suggestions.... and (to raise an earlier topic) if you ever publish your software.... I'll be in line to give it a go. Best!

Alan Johnson · Dec 1, 2019

JWMster said:
Are ascorbic acid developers any "better" or sufficiently better to warrant a look? .

I believe Kodak knew about nearly all the non manufacturer formulations when they decided the Xtol formula.
I tried a few of them:
Cyril Blood ascorbic acid developer - grainy
Paterson FX-50 - quite grainy, my bottle was low activity from day 1, others suggest it was withdrawn because of rapid oxidation.
FX-55 - the working solution is similar in composition to Xtol 1+3
PC glycol - very grainy.
PC-TEA keeps well but probably due to lack of sulfite gives lower EI and more grain than Xtol.
Mocon is a part concentrate formulated to have properties closely identical to Xtol but the developing times are longer.
DS-12 by Ryuji is an ascorbate based acutance developer with additions to minimise oxidation, works well.
Another commercial product is Ilfosol 3, I used the previous version Ilfosol-S which had a published MSDS showing it contained some hydroquinone as well as ascorbate. This produced sharper results than Xtol at the expense of grain. The 3 version is said to have a longer shelf life than the S version
IMO Ilfosol 3 would be the one to try, IDK if it would be OK in a rotary processor though.

Adrian Bacon · Dec 1, 2019

JWMster said:
Adrian: You're nailing the likely culprit. I think for the most part I ran closer to 600ML in my 2500 tank which would have 2 reels and 4 films. Suggested replenishment scheme from Kodak simply wasn't aggressive enough (90ML if I recall) given the aeration in a Jobo..I've seen that like you suggest here, folks find that higher numbers work.
In my frustration, I moved on to another developer and moved back to one-shot working solutions. There will be a time when we come back to replenishment because I see folks doing it with a lot of different developers - not just XTOL and suggesting better results. Fairly, you nailed the other culprit in storage bottles and I junked all of those for some real PET quality chem and food containers.

Like your custom developer in the "adventurous" final sentence. I wonder at the use of paper developers in negative developing... but only 'cause I'm a short time with on three years at this (LOTS and LOTS of films, but a significant # were color... and C-41 seems far simpler compared to B&W). So will have to open my mind to thinking about this route. Thank you for all your suggestions.... and (to raise an earlier topic) if you ever publish your software.... I'll be in line to give it a go. Best!

Well, the paper developer is for prints. I don’t use it on film.

JWMster · Dec 1, 2019

My mistake. I missed that in the read and it sounded like John's formula. Thanks for the correction.

CMoore · Dec 4, 2019

I am not being flip, i know nothing about chemistry, but how "Eco-Friendly" are some of the newer products when compared to "standards" like -
Rodinal
HC-110
D-76
These 3 i have listed above, do they contain chemicals (by todays standards) that are rather nasty, and are working their way back into our environment.?

I realize this might be a huge question, but in Simple/Practical terms (In the link below) how much better for the planet is this brand than the "basic" paper and film developers offered by Photo Form or Ilford.?
Thank You

https://digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_overview.php

Alan Johnson · Dec 4, 2019

IIRC ascorbate was considered better for soil than hydroquinone back in the day when there was any concern for the environment.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2013/542168/

JWMster · Dec 4, 2019

CMoore: Good question. Not flip, and no, I haven't a clue. The "Pro" lists the negatives which it implies are in other developers as its positives. Kind of a weak argument, and maybe a straw man. Dunno. At the end of the day, the comment regarding the medicines we take, the food waste we create, etc. etc. etc. I'm not sure of the whole of it. What I do know is that the drain pipe is a lot closer to the Chesapeake Bay now then it was before.... like less than a 100 yards, and so I am more aware and would like to take as small step in the right direction if possible - beginning at the materials used, but also including how they are disposed of. I was conscious before, but a LOT more aware now.

fs999 · Dec 4, 2019

I use Caffenol for more than 10 years exclusively for B&W. Here you can find most used recipes that I've tested successful.

CL is best for less grain and CLCS for all 400+ ISO films.

JWMster · Dec 4, 2019

fs999: Thanks! I was unaware that there was an active Caffenol Group here on Photrio. I've been looking for one as the Flickr group seems under trafficked. Viewing Flickr photos may not be the best way to judge, but indeed CL / CLCS recipes turn out very sweetly. And yes, that IS the Caffenol recipe list I've been working from. Looking to get more experience with Delta-STD and CM and CH - all of which have plenty of very fine grained photos. I've seen an article where several brands of coffee were tried and the Davidoff Expresso Instant made a "WOW" difference. Kind of expensive stuff, FWIW, but my pursuit isn't about price, but about dealing responsibly with the environment. I've been happy paying more than XTOL prices to use Bergger's Berspeed so not looking to cut corners unnecessarily. But we'll see what we can do in due course. Seeing is believing... and though not a fanatic, we all love grain that is complimentary rather than annoying... and fine grain runs in that direction more commonly. And I saw this with a preference for MF over 35mm (though I like the handiness / speed of use with 35mm), and with an eye to giving 4X5 a try.

Eco Friendlier: Ascorbic Acid Developers + Caffenol etc.

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