ECN2 processing

brbo · May 28, 2023

angah316 said:
hi folks

Prebath (warm water 1L + baking soda (1 tbsp)) .. 2 minute. Shaking little bit and drop
Out all the water . Rinse fresh water .. start the below process

The remjet removal:
- pour in remjet removal solution
- agitate for first 5 - 10s
- leave standing for a minute
- pour out the remjet removal soloution
- now do many washes with cold water and vigorous agitation
- after you can't see any remjet coming out, bring back the tank temperature with warm water to about 38ºC and start with CD

angah316 said:
Timing : CD 3’15 , BL 3’ , FIx 3’
Temperature (+/- 0.2) 38 - 40 - 38.4
- bleach was too long to wait the temperature to drop down .. cant wait .

Don't worry about bleach and fix temperature, the most important thing is to pour in the bleach as soon as you've poured out the developer (if you are not using stop and wash between CD and bleach).

You've got a massive problem with scanning, anyway. Sooner or later we will need to talk about that...

angah316 · May 28, 2023

brbo said:
The remjet removal:
- pour in remjet removal solution
- agitate for first 5 - 10s
- leave standing for a minute
- pour out the remjet removal soloution
- now do many washes with cold water and vigorous agitation
- after you can't see any remjet coming out, bring back the tank temperature with warm water to about 38ºC and start with CD

Don't worry about bleach and fix temperature, the most important thing is to pour in the bleach as soon as you've poured out the developer (if you are not using stop and wash between CD and bleach).

You've got a massive problem with scanning, anyway. Sooner or later we will need to talk about that...

FOR scanner i got 2 scanner
LS600 noritsu and HS1800 .. im using both actually
but for the last pic im used the LS600

angah316 · May 28, 2023

The remjet removal:
- pour in remjet removal solution
- agitate for first 5 - 10s
- leave standing for a minute
- pour out the remjet removal soloution
- now do many washes with cold water and vigorous agitation
- after you can't see any remjet coming out, bring back the tank temperature with warm water to about 38ºC and start with CD

referring to this guideline , can i use the baking soda as removal agent ?

foc · May 28, 2023

I don't wish to go off topic but what software are you using with the Noritsu LS600 & HS1800?
Do you use the EZ Controller and what version of windows?

brbo · May 28, 2023

angah316 said:
referring to this guideline , can i use the baking soda as removal agent ?

I don't know how effective baking soda is for you, some say it works just fine for them. Myself, I never found it nearly as effective as proper remjet removal from Kodak or Bellini.

angah316 said:
FOR scanner i got 2 scanner
LS600 noritsu and HS1800 .. im using both actually
but for the last pic im used the LS600

You should check your sensor:

if there is something unusual going on (like a very weak green channel).

Disable ICE while you are troubleshooting. You can also upload a full resolution raw file of the scan somewhere and I can check what I get from my EZ Controller.

angah316 · May 30, 2023

Hi folks

Just wanted to update ..

Im so happy after find out the cause of the problem.

Its because of the temprature , i dont precise it , its should be 38degrees C consistant. Its a same work process like machine the different i do manually .

For time being , my timing
CD 3’15, BL 1’15” , FIX 2’30”

Before the process i prebath with Baking soda mix with warm water .

koraks · May 30, 2023

angah316 said:
Its because of the temprature , i dont precise it , its should be 38degrees C consistant.

That's right. As we mentioned several times: "at least" is not good enough for color processing!

brbo · May 30, 2023

angah316 said:
Its because of the temprature , i dont precise it , its should be 38degrees C consistant. Its a same work process like machine the different i do manually .

I'm afraid it is not. No amount of temperature drift you can get during 3min processing will turn shadows into full green.

It's good that you can now properly (and repeatedly) process and scan your negatives, but better temperature control alone did not correct for the problem displayed in posts #1 and second image in post #47.

angah316 · May 30, 2023

brbo said:
I'm afraid it is not. No amount of temperature drift you can get during 3min processing will turn shadows into full green.

It's good that you can now properly (and repeatedly) process and scan your negatives, but better temperature control alone did not correct for the problem displayed in posts #1 and second image in post #47.

angah316 said:
Hi folks

Just wanted to update ..

Im so happy after find out the cause of the problem.

Its because of the temprature , i dont precise it , its should be 38degrees C consistant. Its a same work process like machine the different i do manually .

For time being , my timing
CD 3’15, BL 1’15” , FIX 2’30”

Before the process i prebath with Baking soda mix with warm water .

koraks said:
That's right. As we mentioned several times: "at least" is not good enough for color processing!

angah316 said:
Hi folks

Just wanted to update ..

Im so happy after find out the cause of the problem.

Its because of the temprature , i dont precise it , its should be 38degrees C consistant. Its a same work process like machine the different i do manually .

For time being , my timing
CD 3’15, BL 1’15” , FIX 2’30”

Before the process i prebath with Baking soda mix with warm water .

koraks · May 30, 2023

Nice; very punchy/saturated!

angah316 · May 30, 2023

brbo said:
I'm afraid it is not. No amount of temperature drift you can get during 3min processing will turn shadows into full green.

It's good that you can now properly (and repeatedly) process and scan your negatives, but better temperature control alone did not correct for the problem displayed in posts #1 and second image in post #47.

But when i follow the guideline as which is the temprature 38 , its really works .. yeah not 100% but , 95% everything looks good .

koraks · May 30, 2023

Well, I have to say that @brbo is right that a temperature problem is not responsible for the green shadows. It can certainly explain a very off color of the orange mask, image color shifts and crossover. It won't selectively produce magenta dye density in the shadows though. That's due to another factor in your proces that may or may not come back.

angah316 · Nov 21, 2023

ok i think i wanted to discuss again about this topic :
currently im using Champion Mydeg (c41) chemical for developer + bleach + fixer . and the same method , but little bit tweak here an there ..
my temperature for all chemical was heating up to reach : 38-39C .. reach this number, i start to develop .. these are the step

- i skip remove the remjet, no pre bath ( pre bath using baking soda)
- pour over the CD and agitate as usual method for 3:30
- drop out all CD to the tank , and pour over the Bleach for 1:15 .. agitate as usual method
- drop out the bleach and rinse with clear water ... until its clear look
- pour over the fixer for 2:30 . agitate as usual method ..
- drop out the fixer .. rinse with clear water .. and manually remove the remjet (using glove)
- put back the film in the tank , and pour over with Final rinse (STB) for 30 second .. and drop out the stb ..

- wipe and clean up the film ...
well from these steps above , any suggestion or tips or opinion should i look it/rectify .. recently my friend ask me to start develop once CD reach 36c .. some said 41c .. bleach should 104f .. so which method are the correct one .. and produce output ..

koraks · Nov 21, 2023

angah316 said:
any suggestion or tips or opinion should i look it/rectify ..

I would recommend bleaching and fixing a little longer so you're entirely sure there's no silver left on the film afterwards. Especially your bleach time sounds a little short; I'd extend that to 2:30 just to be sure.

angah316 said:
recently my friend ask me to start develop once CD reach 36c .. some said 41c ..

Default C41 temperature is 37.8C/100F. Default ECN2 temperature is 41.1C/106F. Since you're using C41 developer, I'd just stick to those parameters, which would be 37.8C (38C is fine) and 3:15. You're developing for 3:30 it seems, which will give slightly higher contrast. ECN2 film already gives pretty high contrast if you develop it in C41 for 3:15 so I'd just stick to that time. But the difference is pretty small. For scanning, it won't be significant.

I personally prefer to develop my ECN2 film in ECN2 developer because I find it gives better colors especially in high contrast scenes. I use ECN2 developer and develop for 3:45 or 4:00 at 41C. This is because the ECN2 developer is much less active/powerful than C41 developer.

All considered I'd expect your process as you described it above will produce acceptable results. If you're happy with it, just keep doing what you're doing, although I'd extend the bleach time just to be sure.

lamerko · Nov 21, 2023

The procedure described seems fine with the caveat that remjet particles are likely to stick to the emulsion if there is no pre-bath.

koraks · Nov 21, 2023

lamerko said:
The procedure described seems fine with the caveat that remjet particles are likely to stick to the emulsion if there is no pre-bath.

It's not a problem in practice. I do basically the same thing without a pre-bath and it works fine. https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/rem-oval-getting-rid-of-the-remjet-on-vision3-ecn2-film/
Also, even if you do a prebath and remove much of the remjet by violently shaking the tank and then rinsing, there will be remjet remnants on the film left. Due to the high pH of the developer, this remaining remjet will soften further and thus, the same risk of remjet sticking to the emulsion of the film exists. Yet, in practice, it doesn't happen, fortunately.

cmacd123 · Nov 21, 2023

the filc film process guideline uses a prebath, and then suggests MANY rinses to get rid on MUCH of the REM-JET before going to developing.

Knowing the folks at Flic, their Prebath is proably almost exactly what Kodak recomeds in the ECN-2 Processing Modules, so their is no need to actually use their kit.

cmacd123 · Nov 21, 2023

their instuaction sheets are linked from THIS page https://flicfilm.ca/color-film-chemistry/

koraks · Nov 22, 2023

cmacd123 said:
the filc film process guideline uses a prebath, and then suggests MANY rinses to get rid on MUCH of the REM-JET before going to developing.

Yes, I've done it that way many times as well. It works OK and will get most of the remjet off. After processing, the remnants need to be wiped off. Because that step is still necessary, I now just skip the whole pre-bath thing and go straight to development.

angah316 · Dec 2, 2023

i have a question here ...
what happen if developing time , i increase to 4minute .. instead of 3:15 .. while temperature maintain at 38-39C ?

koraks · Dec 2, 2023

@angah316 gamma (contrast) will increase. Color balance will shift slightly, but not problematically so; the negatives will still scan and print just fine. They will in fact print a lot better optically because of the higher contrast.
Official ECN2 temperature is 41C btw. I always develop 3:45 to 4:00 at 41C. At 38-39C the negatives would be underdeveloped for my purpose (=optical printing)

angah316 · Dec 2, 2023

koraks said:
@angah316 gamma (contrast) will increase. Color balance will shift slightly, but not problematically so; the negatives will still scan and print just fine. They will in fact print a lot better optically because of the higher contrast.
Official ECN2 temperature is 41C btw. I always develop 3:45 to 4:00 at 41C. At 38-39C the negatives would be underdeveloped for my purpose (=optical printing)

but thats work the ECN developer chemical right ?
how's about C-41 chemical .. if temp 39-40 timing 4 minute ..

koraks · Dec 2, 2023

That's with ECN2 developer yes.
With C41 developer also expect higher gamma as well as more crossover. This may not matter much with scanning, but can result in unresolvable problems when printing high contrast scenes.

lamerko · Dec 2, 2023

The ECN-2 process specification is for low contrast. This is necessary for the purposes of cinema productions, but it does not look good when we want to use it for other purposes. On the other hand, the C-41 process gives high contrast and higher density negatives. If you use C-41 chemistry to process ECN-2 film, you'll get reasonably good contrast, but colors may deviate from expectations.
It does not make much sense to increase the development time in ECN-2 chemistry to 4 min, but at the same time lower the temperature by two degrees - you will not get the desired results, but it is very likely that you will get lost in the colors.

koraks · Dec 2, 2023

lamerko said:
It does not make much sense to increase the development time in ECN-2 chemistry to 4 min

Having tested it several times against C41, it makes perfect sense to me as I get significantly better color rendition this way when wet printing. When scanning, the crossover is also less pronounced compared to C41 development, but it's less relevant there since it can be mostly fixed. There's a comparison on my blog somewhere that illustrates it along with adjustment curves that show what's going on.

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