ECN2 processing

angah316 · May 23, 2023

Hi everyone, im newbie here. Just wondering and looking for answer why and how can resolve

I developed my Motion Film Color , through ecn2 process. My chemical im using Fuji N1 (CD), N2 (Bleach) , N3 ( fixer). The formula 3’15” : 1’15” : 2’30” with temprature at 38degress a least.

After complete the process, rinse with N4 , and fresh water .

Surprisingly its doesnt turn into my expectation ..

Anyone can help me why its happen and guideline to solve

brbo · May 23, 2023

You will probably need to give more detail about your "ECN2" process. It's obvious that you are not following the standard ECN2 process.

So, which CD, bleach and fix exactly are you using, what film, remjet removal... Pictures of backlit negatives...

koraks · May 23, 2023

angah316 said:
Fuji N1

This is unfamiliar to me, and as far as I know Fuji hasn't been making any ECN2 chemistry for a very long time indeed.

The bleach time sounds extremely short as well; what kind of bleach is the N2?

There's a Kodak tech pub on ECN2 processing which includes a couple of formulas for developer and bleach that one can fairly easily make at home with stuff bought off of eBay etc. This works well; I've done it many times.

My first guess is that your bleach and/or fixer aren't going to completion. As @brbo says, it would help to know what kind materials you use exactly and to be able to see good photographs of the actual negatives as they look when viewed with the naked eye (not inverted etc).

angah316 · May 23, 2023

Motion film KV3

ECN2 process . Im using chemical from fujifilm. Same chemical fujifilm i used for C41 process .only different how its process .

- after load film on the reel, and put inside the peterson tank.

1. Pour over chemical color developer (CD) or label as N1 into the tank, let its submerge and leave timing 3’15”

2. After complete the timing 3’15” , remove the CD from tank, and pour over chemical bleach (N2) into Tank, agitate and submegre 1’15” ..

3. After timing complete. Remove the N2 (bleach) chemical from the tank.. and Pour over clean water to the tank for rinse.

4. After rinse, pour over N3 (fixer chemical) into the tank , leave it for 2’30” ,during the period need to slowly agitate couple of time .

5. Once time ended, remove the N3 (fixer) and load Final rinse (N4) leave it 1 minute , .. remove the N4 ..during this part its help
To remove the remjet too . And wash it as normal to remove balance of remjet,

koraks · May 23, 2023

angah316 said:
Same chemical fujifilm i used for C41 process .only different how its process .

Then it's really a C41 process. ECN2 uses a different developer, based on CD3 instead of CD4. You should be able to get a decent image with C41 processing however.

Try bleaching and fixing again on this film, but this time use something like 6 minutes for both bleach and fix times. Both steps should go to completion so testing with long times won't hurt and will ensure complete processing.

Note that washing after a final rinse makes the final rinse step superfluous since you wash out the biocide and wetting agent anyway.

Remjet can be removed after processing by soaking Rh film briefly in a weak sodium carbonate solution and wiping off the remjet with a soft cloth. There's a couple more easy to do it, too. Merely washing doesn't get rid of the all remjet on Kodak Vision3 film in my experience; a bit tends to remain.

angah316 said:
with temprature at 38degress a least.

This sounds a bit dodgy. Especially the developer step in color processes is fairly critical. It shouldn't be "at least" something, but pretty much exactly the target temperature.

There sure is quite a bit of leeway and different ways of doing color processing while still getting decent results, but I have the impression your interpretation might be a bit too, eh...creative

brbo · May 23, 2023

angah316 said:
Motion film KV3

ECN2 process . Im using chemical from fujifilm. Same chemical fujifilm i used for C41 process .only different how its process .

This is not how it works. ECN2 is not just C-41 with different times. You obviously acquired chemicals from somewhere (probably meant for minilabs since you insist on calling them N-1, N-2, N3...?). Can you get more information about the chemicals? How did you come up with 1:15s time for bleach, for example?

There is also a possibility that there is something seriously wrong with scanning, for example, green channel clipping waaay too early, evident by the fact that problem seems to be limited to less dense parts of the negatives...

Rudeofus · May 23, 2023

If I look at the ECN-2 process, it uses a C-41 like bleach (based on Ammonium Ferric PDTA), and it uses this bleach for 3:00, not 1:15.

angah316 · May 24, 2023

this is what i used. Fujifilm chemical

The CN16L range of film chemistry is a low replenishment rate chemical designed for the processing of all negative films compatible with Fuji minilab configured for the CN16L process. As in all range of film chemistry, the CN-16L comprises a Developer N1-CR , Bleach N2R, Fixer N3R and a Stabiliser N4R. The N1S Developer starter is used with the N1-CR to make fresh Working tank solution.

Those are chemical i used to process EC-2.
as i told before .. at least 38 degrees (with digital thermometer i checked the 3 bottles 40-41 degrees).
timing for develop 3'15" : 1'15" : 2'30"
my question can i redevelop the film back, and just pour over bleach and fixer (step by step) , what is the result .

koraks · May 24, 2023

angah316 said:
and just pour over bleach and fixer (step by step

Yes, you can! Give it a try; it might help.

I see you use the CN16 line of Fuji chemistry. I use those too for C41, and the bleach and fixer I use for Kodak Vision3 films as well. I bleach and fix for 3 to 4 minutes at 41C when doing ECN2. The developer can also be used, but the colors are a little better with genuine ECN2 developer.

angah316 · May 24, 2023

so i develop for fresh film of KV3 (motion film), should i change the timing .. formula as below ..

film : kv3
temperature : 41 degrees

N1 ( color developer) : 3'15"
N2 (Bleach) : 3'
N3 (FIXER) : 3'

WILL Update the result

brbo · May 24, 2023

According to CN-16L process, your 1:15s for bleach and 2:30s for fix should probably be enough.

How do the negatives look like? As a typical colour negative should...

... or do you see any obvious problems on the negatives? Because, if you don't see really intense magenta colour in the parts with low density, I'd say there is a problem with scanning and/or digital inversion of the scan.

lamerko · May 24, 2023

You are using the wrong chemistry with the wrong process. Fuji's CN-16 process is actually C-41. ECN-2 uses different chemicals, times and a special pre-bath. However, cross-processing should produce reasonably good results - I've never seen anything like it. You can repeat the steps with the bleach and fixative, but I doubt it's one of them.
Times are precisely calculated for proper agitation. You can't just pour the solution and wait for these times. This will make the negatives very thin, and it is possible that the scan may have acquired these artifacts in an attempt to compensate.

If you skipped the special pre-bath, which is just an alkaline solution, the color developer will do some of the work of dissolving the adhesives in the antihalation layer. However, this will not be good for your chemistry. If you are using Kodak film, you will eventually need to mechanically remove the RemJet residue.

Any picture of the negative itself?

cmacd123 · May 24, 2023

I agree that the bleach and fix time should be longer. also I am wondering if the REM-JET is not still on the film. Been years since I tried to do ecn2 film at home but carefully removing the REM-Jet took quite a bit of time wiping the film with photo sponges that had to be rinsed with running water after each foot of the film with care to avaoid transfering the carbon black to the emusion where it would likely be embedded permanently.

mshchem · May 24, 2023

The processing makes sense for C-41. I haven't tried to process anything but C-41 films.

lamerko · May 24, 2023

angah316 said:
this is what i used. Fujifilm chemical

The CN16L range of film chemistry is a low replenishment rate chemical designed for the processing of all negative films compatible with Fuji minilab configured for the CN16L process. As in all range of film chemistry, the CN-16L comprises a Developer N1-CR , Bleach N2R, Fixer N3R and a Stabiliser N4R. The N1S Developer starter is used with the N1-CR to make fresh Working tank solution.

Those are chemical i used to process EC-2.
as i told before .. at least 38 degrees (with digital thermometer i checked the 3 bottles 40-41 degrees).
timing for develop 3'15" : 1'15" : 2'30"
my question can i redevelop the film back, and just pour over bleach and fixer (step by step) , what is the result .

Oh, I see it now. You've done some weird experiment... The chemistry you use calls for 38 degrees - not "at least", but "exactly, with +/- 0.2 degree deviation". Maybe the result is not so strange

mshchem · May 24, 2023

angah316 said:
Hi everyone, im newbie here. Just wondering and looking for answer why and how can resolve

I developed my Motion Film Color , through ecn2 process. My chemical im using Fuji N1 (CD), N2 (Bleach) , N3 ( fixer). The formula 3’15” : 1’15” : 2’30” with temprature at 38degress a least.

After complete the process, rinse with N4 , and fresh water .

Surprisingly its doesnt turn into my expectation ..

Anyone can help me why its happen and guideline to solveView attachment 339488 View attachment 339489

Are these images reversal of the actual negatives? These have some blue sky etc, this isn't the actual negative??

foc · May 25, 2023

I may be a little late to this discussion but looking at the image the OP posted in #1. it would appear to me that they are scans of negatives with retained silver. (this is due to insufficient bleaching )

Did the OP re-bleach and re-fix these negatives?

I know the chemicals being used and they are designed for machine processing. Of course, they can be used for home developing, no problem, but the bleach and fix times would need to be extended. (in machine processing there is very vigorous circulation/agitation of the bleach and fix chemicals which can't be achieved in home processing)

As has been explained, bleach and fix will go to completion so just extend the times to 6 minutes and no harm will be caused.

Developer must be 38C for the correct time ( no guessing temperature) and the rest should be above 30C.

angah316 · May 26, 2023

lamerko said:
Oh, I see it now. You've done some weird experiment... The chemistry you use calls for 38 degrees - not "at least", but "exactly, with +/- 0.2 degree deviation". Maybe the result is not so strange

i check my chemical temperature .. 41.1degree

angah316 · May 26, 2023

1st : using KV3 500T

timing : CD 3'15" -- > BL 1'15" -- > Fix 5'
Chemical temperature : 41degree.

angah316 · May 26, 2023

2nd : using KV3 500T

timing : CD 3'15" -- > BL 3' -- > Fix 3'
Chemical temperature : 41degree.
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lamerko · May 26, 2023

angah316 said:
1st : using KV3 500T

timing : CD 3'15" -- > BL 1'15" -- > Fix 5'
Chemical temperature : 41degree.

There is still a misunderstanding. You are using C-41 chemistry and you MUST follow the steps for this process. No matter you develop ECN-2 film. To use the ECN-2 process, you MUST use the appropriate chemistry. There is no "official" supplier of such chemistry BUT Kodak have published the recipe which is very simple. Separately - there are quite a few kits on the market that are more or less based on the Kodak recipe.
In your case - you need to develop on C-41 3:05 min at EXACTLY 38.00 degrees Celsius.

angah316 · May 26, 2023

lamerko said:
There is still a misunderstanding. You are using C-41 chemistry and you MUST follow the steps for this process. No matter you develop ECN-2 film. To use the ECN-2 process, you MUST use the appropriate chemistry. There is no "official" supplier of such chemistry BUT Kodak have published the recipe which is very simple. Separately - there are quite a few kits on the market that are more or less based on the Kodak recipe.
In your case - you need to develop on C-41 3:05 min at EXACTLY 38.00 degrees Celsius.

Which one the Kodak Recipe ? I believe i need to use their chemical .. then will
Get the result as expectation

lamerko · May 26, 2023

Kodak H-24 Modules

Module 7: Process ECN-2 Specifications - from page 27

Rudeofus · May 26, 2023

lamerko said:
There is still a misunderstanding. You are using C-41 chemistry and you MUST follow the steps for this process. No matter you develop ECN-2 film. To use the ECN-2 process, you MUST use the appropriate chemistry. There is no "official" supplier of such chemistry BUT Kodak have published the recipe which is very simple. Separately - there are quite a few kits on the market that are more or less based on the Kodak recipe.
In your case - you need to develop on C-41 3:05 min at EXACTLY 38.00 degrees Celsius.

Thanks to Cinestill et al. a sizeable part of this world develops ECN-2 materials in C-41 chemistry, and most seem to be more or less happy with the results. And no, he does not HAVE TO use the same bleach times as C-41, that's a process, which runs to completion, and different materials may well complete in different time frames. BTW the ECN-2 process uses a bleach very similar to C-41 bleach, and the ECN-2 process does bleach for 3:00.

Rudeofus · May 26, 2023

angah316 said:
2nd : using KV3 500T

timing : CD 3'15" -- > BL 3' -- > Fix 3'
Chemical temperature : 41degree.
|

It appears to me, that the dark sections in these scans show much less reddish glow than in your first test run. Is this correct?

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