E6 film developed in Rodinal (B&W) and than c41

Mogsby · Dec 5, 2016

I did a few test earlier.
(266)... Rodinal 1:25 dev for 12 mins at 38c, followed by 5mins C41 dev, bleach and fix.
(268) Rodinal 1:25 with 4g sodium Thiosulphate added, then same method as first.
(267) Eukobrom 1:5 with 4g ST added, then same for rest of process as above.
(269) Eukobrom 1:2 with 4g ST added, then same as above but ecn2 CD.
(270) I get the idea that the first dev is the critical step and for the Boots Slide Film... ordinal and Eukobrom are No Good. I have used the Rodinal on Agfa slide and got much better results, but still have a grey foggy mask to the film, No whites, not even close. 2nd strip from top the rodinal, of use for a welder, or sun gazer.... not much else.
I looked at the Watkins factor for 1st dev, TBH by the time you buy all the ingredients ( a couple of the ingredients are very expensive for a small amount you get) you may as well spend the same money on an E6 kit, most likely what I will do. Shoot a lot of slide film over time then bulk process the whole lot.
If I get some Xtol I may follow this guy in this link Dead Link Removed .But I have a feeling a different film from what he used will be far from his results.

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

Sigh......

You guys do not understand color processing.

PE

Mogsby · Dec 6, 2016

I'm having a few more attempts with the last of the boots slide film. This time I have mixed Silvermax with rodinal and added a few grains of the sodium thiosulphate. Only cannot find the thermometer so having to use my elbow to test the temp of the water. Should be alright.

faberryman · Dec 6, 2016

What is the purpose of these experiments again?

Mogsby · Dec 6, 2016

To process slide film in c41 or ecn2 chemicals.

Mogsby · Dec 6, 2016

I see the sodium thiosulphate does a job of keeping the film from going dark, but it looks like it affects the yellow, takes it away. Is there something different I could use ?. I added about half a grammar of the crystals, maybe I should try even less , like .1 of a gramm.

Mogsby · Dec 6, 2016

This is after the first dev.

Cholentpot · Dec 6, 2016

Mogsby said:
I did a few test earlier.
(266)... Rodinal 1:25 dev for 12 mins at 38c, followed by 5mins C41 dev, bleach and fix.
(268) Rodinal 1:25 with 4g sodium Thiosulphate added, then same method as first.
(267) Eukobrom 1:5 with 4g ST added, then same for rest of process as above.
(269) Eukobrom 1:2 with 4g ST added, then same as above but ecn2 CD.
(270) I get the idea that the first dev is the critical step and for the Boots Slide Film... ordinal and Eukobrom are No Good. I have used the Rodinal on Agfa slide and got much better results, but still have a grey foggy mask to the film, No whites, not even close. 2nd strip from top the rodinal, of use for a welder, or sun gazer.... not much else.
I looked at the Watkins factor for 1st dev, TBH by the time you buy all the ingredients ( a couple of the ingredients are very expensive for a small amount you get) you may as well spend the same money on an E6 kit, most likely what I will do. Shoot a lot of slide film over time then bulk process the whole lot.
If I get some Xtol I may follow this guy in this link Dead Link Removed .But I have a feeling a different film from what he used will be far from his results.

I just read that link. I would spend the $3.50-$5.00 by letting the film dry after fogging and then sending off to a lab. Now I'm really curious how well that would work rather than using a home c-41 kit.

Photo Engineer · Dec 6, 2016

Mogsby, that film does not look fully processed.

PE

Rudeofus · Dec 7, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Mogsby, that film does not look fully processed.

The clip I see posted by Mogsby looks like typical E6 film right after FD. It still contains some colloidal silver as antihalation layer and is therefore nearly opaque.

georgegrosu · Dec 7, 2016

I think the problem comes from the lack of direct light in which you see the film.
After development black and white I see the film directly bulb.
Here the light is not behind the film.
Initially I thought that it is not sufficiently developed in black and white developer.
After writing Rudeofus, I realized I was missing direct bulb.

George

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

Sorry for the rubbish photos, I am looking for a low price scanner on eBay.
This is how the film came out after bleach and fix.
If I use rodinal without added sodium thiosulphate the images have full colour but the base of the film is very dark, no use for projection and the whites are not true white. If I add the S T to the rodinal, I get a clearer base but the colours are washed away, especialy the yellows. It gives the same result as using eukobrom.

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Mogsby, that film does not look fully processed.

PE

It was in the developer for half an hour, that came out looking underdeveloped. Maybe I am going the wrong way and a shorter developing time would work. Maybe I should try either a shorter dev time or greatly reduce the sodium thiosulphate.

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

georgegrosu said:
I think the problem comes from the lack of direct light in which you see the film.
After development black and white I see the film directly bulb.
Here the light is not behind the film.
Initially I thought that it is not sufficiently developed in black and white developer.
After writing Rudeofus, I realized I was missing direct bulb.

George

I forgot to say that was the only way to show the image. With a light from behind the image was impossible to see.

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

This Agfa precisa. 12 mins in rodinal at 38c followed by ecn2 process at 38c using basic ecn2 timings. The colour is not too bad, but the white is off. I think because the film has a dark mask type thing going on. The darkness is what I am trying to correct. The background on the slides is supposed to be light beige.

georgegrosu · Dec 7, 2016

You continue with 4 g ST.
S T I suspect that is sodium thiocyanate?
Decrease your S T at 2 g or 1 gram to increase further your black level.
How to get a good black and white levels walk no longer in chemistry.
Give corrections only by time and temperature.
With time and temperature make small changes.
Pictures after first developer do not help us with anything as they are.
Can not draw a conclusion.

George

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

georgegrosu said:
You continue with 4 g ST.
S T I suspect that is sodium thiocyanate?
Decrease your S T at 2 g or 1 gram to increase further your black level.
How to get a good black and white levels walk no longer in chemistry.
Give corrections only by time and temperature.
With time and temperature make small changes.
Pictures after first developer do not help us with anything as they are.
Can not draw a conclusion.

George

Thank you for the comments, I will try what you suggest. I have to change film as the Boots film is all used. I have a roll of Fuji sensia 100. I will do a basic Rodinal 1:50 solution at 38c for 12 minutes first dev, so I get a basic starting point.
I just realised I am using Sodium Thiosulphate... should I be using Sodium thiocyanate?
I use the Sodium Thiosulphate for B&W negative reversal!. I thought it would be close enough, but maybe no good for this colour process.

georgegrosu · Dec 7, 2016

When doing tests color reversal You have two things should interest you.
White and black.
The other halftone they put.
Thiocyanate and thiosulphate are solvents to be able to get the white as clean.
When you're close to a good result should not change chemistry.
Try to be explicit with data for each sample.
At least for you.
It is possible that the process does not respond the same for all color negative.
You reside in one, two color negatives.
If you switch to the all the time not reach any conclusion.

George

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2016

No matter what, if at the end of the process, the image is very dark then first development was weak and if light, first development was heavy. This assumes good film and exposure. That is a generalization for E6 films.

PE

Mogsby · Dec 7, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
No matter what, if at the end of the process, the image is very dark then first development was weak and if light, first development was heavy. This assumes good film and exposure. That is a generalization for E6 films.

PE

Hi PE,
I fully take on board what you say, I found that is the case when reversing B&W to positive following the 'Ilford way', exposure value and dev, you have to think in reverse. But I think with the slide film non E6 process it is a huge challenge to get it right. I only see a few on the internet that have got it close and advertise the results. I decided not to do any developing tonight, give myself time to digest all that has been said and also have a good look at my results. Getting a big enough supply of the same brand, speed and fairly fresh slide film (at a reasonable price) is a challenge in itself.
I have been doing analogue photography for less than a year, since my daughter started photography at college. Darkroom time at her college is limited to a total 3 hours a week, so I bought her some kit for home study but got sucked in myself. With the B&W we started on I was soon stepping on her feet so I moved to mostly learning colour.

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2016

Well, this is an opinion. Developing E6 in Rodinal as FD is not a good thing to do. So, we start with a bad premise here.

PE

kb3lms · Dec 7, 2016

See US 4366234, Wheatcroft et al, for a workable E6 first developer and follow Example 1. It is also discussed here on APUG, search for "Wheatcroft". Not the official formula for the FD but better performance than rodinal. Have tried this with good results. Follow normal processing for E-6.

If you REALLY want to, you can use the Wheatcroft FD and follow with ECN-2 chemistry with the process modified to follow the E-6 process. ECN-2 uses CD-3 as the CD so at least it's close. I tried as a quick experiment once to see if the Wheatcroft FD worked. It gave useable results. A real E6 CD would be better.

IDK what C-41 chemistry would do.

-- Jason

JoJo · Dec 8, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Well, this is an opinion. Developing E6 in Rodinal as FD is not a good thing to do. So, we start with a bad premise here.

Yes.
I did similar experiments but was not successful with Rodinal.
See here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Atomal (A49) gave much better results because this developer creates much more density.
Rodinal will not do the reqired density for the lights after reversal step. Too long FD time with Rodinal creates fog, which makes the slightly transparent shadows.

Joachim

Mogsby · Dec 8, 2016

JoJo said:
Yes.
I did similar experiments but was not successful with Rodinal.
See here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Atomal (A49) gave much better results because this developer creates much more density.
Rodinal will not do the reqired density for the lights after reversal step. Too long FD time with Rodinal creates fog, which makes the slightly transparent shadows.

Joachim

I have ordered some Atomal 49, will not be here till after the weekend. What strength did you mix the developer?, also what sort of temperature and time should I be looking at to start with, please.
Cheers
Mick

Mogsby · Dec 8, 2016

kb3lms said:
See US 4366234, Wheatcroft et al, for a workable E6 first developer and follow Example 1. It is also discussed here on APUG, search for "Wheatcroft". Not the official formula for the FD but better performance than rodinal. Have tried this with good results. Follow normal processing for E-6.
Thanks, I will have a look, but I suspect I will have the same problem getting hold of some of the ingredients like the CD3/4.

E6 film developed in Rodinal (B&W) and than c41

Mogsby

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E6 film developed in Rodinal (B&W) and than c41

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